Episode 60: Creating a Human-Centered Brand with Brand Strategist and Designer, Marion Tan

Molly Cahill

My guest today Marian tan is a brand strategist and designer. And she is the owner of the company heart and home, which is the branding studio dedicated to priming wellness leaders for industry growth in recognition. We have a really great conversation today. I can't wait for you to hear it. We talk all about human centered branding and empathetic branding and just kind of how to market without being like super fear based and, you know, just really agitating the crap out of people's pain points. She has an expertise in brand strategy, messaging and design. And she currently works with mostly clinicians, coaches and practitioners and translating their brilliance and holistic offers into a unified brand concept they're known for. So I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. Could you tell I'm so bad at like reading so bad at reading bios, this is why I don't script my podcast people. Thank you for thank you for being patient with me. Here we go. Welcome to holistic marketing simplified a podcast for health and wellness professionals looking to simplify their marketing. I'm your host, Molly Cahill. And this podcast is brought to you by my marketing roadmap, which is a five episode private audio training that's kind of like this podcast, but not exactly because it's not available to the general public when you search on your podcast feed. So the great thing about consuming free content like this for me or on my Instagram or my blogs, or whatever is that yes, you will learn a lot but you kind of have to go searching for what it is exactly you're looking for. This five episode private podcast is broken down in a logical step by step order. That's why it's called a roadmap. If you're ready to get started on your Instagram marketing journey, or if you already are started and you're just feel like you're kind of like overwhelmed with all of the different free information. This is a super clear roadmap with lots of tangible step by step action items that will get you from point A to point B for just $27. So all you have to do is head to Molly cahill.com/private. Training. And based on the reviews I've had so far, I know you won't be disappointed.

Dr. Abbey Parrish

Hello, my name is Dr. Abby Parrish and I'm a chiropractor located in Old Town, Daphne, Alabama. And I listen to the holistic marketing simplified podcast.

Molly Cahill

Mary, and I'm so happy you're here today. I know we booked this like forever ago. I know. And I think it's so funny. I just need to start off this episode by talking about how I found you. Oh, yeah, I remember. Yeah. That it was Simone souls podcast thread she posted on her Instagram. And what's funny how I found Simone was through my friend Vicki Schilling, who was just on the podcasts. And I just think it's like, you know what people can hate on social media all they want, but I just happened to find you in this random Instagram. If y'all don't follow Simone soul, you would love her. She posted something on Instagram. It was like podcast thread, like find your next podcast guest on this thread. And it had like, tons of comments. I was. Yes. And so I started scrolling through and I saw Marian and I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got to have her on. Yeah. And then I just DM her and and just like worked out. So um, so yeah, have you, Marian. So did you more formal introduction. But tell me just like the short version of like, who are you? Like, where do you live? Like, tell me like, you and how did you get into the branding space? Yeah,

Marion Tan

yeah. Let me try to shorten this because I'm not good. Yeah, I'm a yapper. Tend to Blogger a lot around the Philippines. Okay. complete opposite side. Yeah, the world. I began my career as a corporate multinational, as a brand assistant for the premium beauty category. And at the time, you know, I was fresh out of college, I felt like my whole career has been laid out for me. What, the more that I got into the industry, I think, the more that I saw, I guess, the manipulative and transactional ways that people would run business, and no matter how good the pay was, it just never felt aligned with me. And if I'm very stubborn person, if something doesn't feel aligned at the very onset, I'm out.

Molly Cahill

Like, Yeah, completely out. No, I get it. Right.

Marion Tan

Right. And yeah, it just doesn't did feel good to be in that company to be learning from people who have those, their set of values. So moving into an advertising agency to really pursue creativity. You know, being an art director and And I saw the same thing saw the same thing about how people or how about how companies aren't necessarily operating in a way that's in line with the values to slap on their walls. And during the pandemic just got so bad, the culture got incredibly toxic, people are working 16 hour work days, some would even say up to 24 hours if there was a pitch. And that was when I Yeah, yeah, it's insane. It's I don't I don't know how I survived that. I don't know how I managed to stay in that culture for two years, two years feel short. But in that setup,

Molly Cahill

it's like an eternity. Two years is a long time doing work.

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah. And so come the pandemic, I stumbled upon the online space, saw all these other designers, branding studio owners helping out fellow small business owners with their brands. And I thought, you know, what I could take the experience that I have with these multinational companies, bigger brands, and contribute to this space and really make a difference, you know, no matter how small it is, and also in a way that's in integrity, with my values and my lifestyle. So that's how harden and hone came to be. It's my brand new studio. And now I serve entrepreneurs in the health and wellness space by supporting them and articulating their brands verbally and visually, in a way that really makes their audience feel safe, seen and understood. That's part of my, my background. I

Molly Cahill

love it. So from a, like a more like tangible, like deliverables standpoint, how, like, what is it that you like, if someone comes to you like, is it like a package option? Is it like an online course? How does that work?

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad you asked my main offerings, our brand strategy, which is the roadmap of your brand. So before you make any kind of execution, you would need to have a brand strategy, because that will define new your copy how your design looks like how your website is gonna look like photography. So it's like the blueprint of your brand. You know, when you build a house, you need to have a blueprint. That's what brand strategy is. And I also complement that with my design services, because I'm also a designer. So signing services would involve logo design, your fonts, colors, basically the visual identity of your brand. So it's really like building a house for your brand, right? Like, I provide you the blueprint and foundation. And we build your brand and also decorate the interiors. Oh, I love that. I love that, like colors and the fun stuff. Does brand strategy and design as

Molly Cahill

the deliverables? I love that and so okay, we didn't talk about this beforehand. We may or may not agree on this. So I'm not like, trying to be people listening. Like I don't just have people out and then I'm like, hey, I want you to say this. Like I don't know, Mike is that. Yeah. Laura Bell gray.

Marion Tan

Oh, yeah, I do. I do.

Molly Cahill

Okay, I love her. I mean, I haven't I have, she sends a lot of emails, like three a week and say like, I'm always kind of someone who's like, on and off her email list. Just depending, like, if I find myself needing, like, creative or copy inspo I'll hop back on her email list just to spice and yeah, I just love her spicy need to. Yeah, and her brand reminds me of mine a lot. Not visually, but just how can there's a question here? I swear, I am not someone who could say this is what I want my Molly Cahill brand to be like, it just has to be me. Yeah, I think that, you know, my background is in traditional marketing sounds like yours is to where it's like, well, your brand is not about you. It's about your, your consumer, right or your patient, whatever. And I get that if you're like a company or if you're like Target or you know, a smaller company, like, you know, who's selling some ad, I don't know. But when it comes to working with the types of people that you and I work with, especially when you're divulging your deepest darkest like health secrets, you know, you're walking in going Hey, I can't put like can you help me like for sure you don't want some brand that that doesn't even feel like you as the clinician or health provider like whatever weight you whether you're a health coach or chiropractor or whatever. So do when you're working through it with people are well how I got on more about grace, because she had a post it was like screw making a brand personality, make your personality, the brand. Yeah. And that's how I feel too because I'm like, if I come to your Instagram, let's just say you're a chiropractor. I come to your Instagram and I'm like, wow, they're this like, peaceful, calming, like very professional, you know? And then I get into your clinic and that's not your personality. There's a disconnect there. I'm like, wait a minute, this isn't who I thought I was, you know, coming to it as a patient. So talk to me about just your thoughts on that and how you help. Like, let's just say Like you're working with a health coach, like how do you walk them through that brand? What did you call it? Your brand strategy strategy?

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love this question. I get this question a lot. And I think what's often communicated in, you know, in Google YouTube online, applies to larger corporate companies, but it's different. Branding is different when you're a service provider, when you're running a smaller business that's more personal. So what I, my approach is always finding that intersection, it's like a Venn diagram, if you imagine finding the intersection between what feels aligned with you, as the face of the brand, as the person, the founder, behind the business, and at the same time, what will resonate with your audience as well, you know, because in that intersection, that's where we meet your most aligned, perfect fit. Clients, you know, like you don't want to be right. But yeah, that's how I, I explain it, like you don't want to be presenting yourself as someone, you're not just to attract a certain type of people. And at the same time, you don't want to be all over the place. And you know, how you leave your audience confused what it is that you're really doing, or what it is that you want to be known for. So I always say that branding is, like expressing a language that only you and your audience can understand. It's getting deep into the most authentic, truest parts of yourself. And whoever stays means that they're the right people for you, you know, there's no need to be very rigid about it. And that's the approach that I incorporate in my process as well. Because sometimes people do need that, that support and having a mirror or having someone reflect back their unique strengths and brilliance to them. That has always been there. But they may be they may not have been asked the questions that they needed to be asked in order to uncover an earth that so that's how I support my clients through that process.

Molly Cahill

I love a love that that you said the mirror part. I love that and just when I was doing my rebrand, like, I was like, What is my what is my home look like? Right? Like, yeah, somebody who has mostly all white and neutral walls, but I also have like, like a bright orange vase behind here, and I have a bright I have a blue couch. And I have like, right art, like I have a you know, to can on my wall, like, you know what I'm saying? Like? No, I'm like, so I wanted my brand to have that neutral undertone, but to just have like the Pops because I'm like, That's me like that's. And so I love that you said that about the mirror thing. Like that's really cool. And to put this into, to like an example because that's how I always learned things. If you're listening, you're like, I don't quite understand. We had a client who she's been a client for years. Shout out Dr. Davis, you know that you're like, my real MVP, and I love you. I do I love her so much. And she's like one of my favorite humans on the planet. She Yeah, no, I've got to meet her in real life too, which is awesome. There was that trending audio, you know, that crashed my car to the bridge. I don't care. Like it was like Will Ferrell Do you know? You remember that? That thing? So? Yeah.

Marion Tan

Oh, yeah.

Molly Cahill

As it were, like, we you filmed this, and I didn't really know what we're gonna do with it yet. But then I was like, okay, she's a chiropractor. She She's that intersection of like, super crunchy moms. But then like, the people who are just dipping their toe in of like, you know, maybe I don't have to get antibiotics for my kids here. And, you know, it's like, so she she's definitely seeing both ends of the spectrum. And so we just did it. Like, the copy on the screen said something like, Yes, I'm a chiropractor and will always teach you about holistic health, something like that. It was obviously more short than that. And I was like, but I'm also going to eat Chick fil A. So she literally got a new patient from that reel. They came in and they were like, we saw that reel and we just knew you were the person for us. And yeah, but that person did not comment on that reel. So I get people get so hung up on comments. I'm like, Guys, there are so many silent workers, like this person never commented. Okay, they just came in, like, chill out on the comments. Um, but yeah, I just I think that's kind of like a perfect example of like, that showed exactly who she was and was like that intersection of her and her ideal patient. I don't know. Yeah,

Marion Tan

like her quirks and all that. You know, I think I think that's the beautiful thing. And fun thing about building a personal brand or brandy is because people are so nuanced, like they have their own unique set of intricacies and quirks and personality that a framework can't really capture. I know there are the love that yes, brand personality quizzes, you know, like art types that you have to be the certain archetype it means you have to behave this way. These are the colors that are that fit this archetype, these They're the words that you have to use. And I don't necessarily agree with that all the time, I think the brands that I'm most excited to work on are those that, you know, the thing that they say that you can do both, you know, like, you can be minimalistic, but you can be loud at the same time, you can be formal, but you can be quirky at the same time, you can be quiet, but you can be impactful at the same time. And I think that is the thing that's really reflective of, you know, who it is that we're dealing, which is, you know, human beings. And I think it's just a more exciting way of developing brands that way. I

Molly Cahill

love that. And I even, I should probably pull this reel out and post it again. But even big corporations, like Target still bring in personal branding when they bring in, you know, Magnolia, like Chip and Joanna Gaines, or like they bring in, you know, Shea McGee or whatever, like, that's putting a face to target. And people are like, oh, and it gives that personal connection. So, before I Well, first, I could ask you like, You talk a lot about human centered branding. So what is that? And how do you build a human centered brand? And I would even say, like, why is it even important to have that human centered brand? Yeah,

Marion Tan

yeah, yeah, so a human centered brand is simply it's very take it in its most definitely literal definition. It's having the human person be the star of the brand, not necessarily the product or the service. So it's simply a brand that is tailored to the entirety of the person as a human being, not as a potential buyer. So it's all about taking into account again, the new ones behavior of your audience, understanding what it is that they truly desire, and thinking about, you know, their fears, doubts, lived experience and their needs. And at the same time, also acknowledging your needs as the founder and the face of the brand, especially when you're running your business or when you're faced, you're the face of the business. And in building one, you know, Molly, that irony about building a human centered brand. And why you ask why it's significant. It's because it's it wasn't expected, right? Like, obviously, we serve people, the end users or people like, why do we need to have this conversation? Why is it a significant thing that has to be brought up or called out? And I think it's because, you know, once you start to grow a business and think about the technical side of things, the humanity of the individual often tends to get put into the backburner. So for example, sometimes we would tend to bypass their lived experience because we want to sell more or we take less caution around what we say no, we end up putting out words that may be insensitive in remarketing, just because carts about to close, you know, so sometimes when people tend to get caught up on scaling and growing, they think about, oh, how do we increase revenue? How do we increase income, okay, this strategy, work, this marketing works, yada, yada, yada. And the end of the day, you're forgetting that the people that you're transacting with your future clients, the people that are helping have actual lives that they're living behind the screen. You know,

Molly Cahill

you know what the best example of that that came to my mind was like, so you have two choices. You can either buy my program, and like now become a millionaire, or you can not buy and continue to be broke ass like, you know, it's like, anybody.

Molly Cahill

That literally, that isn't totally the tone, like nothing, you know?

Marion Tan

Yeah, I hate that so many people. So, yeah, early, early online entrepreneur days, maybe like, three years back, I would still that very often, I will still see that very often.

Molly Cahill

I can't do false scarcity, because it just feels so disingenuous to me. So I have an evergreen funnel. And I think it's one of those like, two things can be true scenario. So I think I had a mentor, who told me and I 100% agree with her. Sometimes you are doing someone a favor by giving them a deadline. Yeah, whether that deadline is like, quote real or not. Sometimes that just helps them make a decision. Yeah, because if there's something I've been eyeballing and I know I have forever to buy it. Yeah, I might not but I am the type of personality I don't need the deadline if I want something. And if I just resonate, just like with you, Marian, for example, like, I wouldn't even need to read the sales page. Most the time I would just buy it. That's that's how I am like, I'm such a visceral like emotional, like, I don't know what she has, but I know that I'm going to get something out of this. I don't need to read every little detail. And I would I would recommend listeners go back to my episode I did early on. With Deanna Pristina things her name about the DISC assessment about how certain people do they need every little delivery, they need to know exactly how many modules they need to know exactly, you know, and then some people were like me, I'm such an emotional buyer. I'm like, oh, like you Marian cool. What do you got? I'll buy it like. So I'm not saying all deadlines or funnels or scarcity are bad. I just just if it gives you the IQ, then like, that's your I think that's your sign.

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that's, that's why it's also important to acknowledge, you know, the different buyer types, and have very good methods and strategies in selling your office, because you're right, there are people who will they feel you they feel your energy they're going to buy there are people who would ask all the questions who need the long sales page. So for you, it would be a merit, if you take those into consideration. Anything, you know, again, really goes back to understanding the human person that you're serving, like, how did they behave? I know, for me, personally, I've been doing this for so long, maybe 3.5 years. But I know that my people, they don't like urgency. I just know that when people don't like urgency. So I never, maybe I do you know, to an extent, but it's not the core of my marketing strategy. And I still get sales, because of those years of understanding them talking to them, you know, analyzing their behavior. And, like, once you mentioned a slot, if it gives you the EQ, then it's your sign, you know, like we we run businesses sometimes in an intuitive way, and from an intuitive place. So if this just doesn't feel good, then don't do it. You know, you you set your own rules, you have your own business, just go do whatever feels good to you. And yeah, the people who will resonate with that will see that I

Molly Cahill

know I had someone in the space asked me like, Hey, can you write me a review for my course. I was like, Well, I haven't taken your course. And she's like, well, it's like right here. All right, you want I'm like, Well, you haven't taken my course. She's like, it's okay. People do it all the time. I'm like, I don't want to be people do it.

Marion Tan

Garba they don't come back to bite you. Like,

Molly Cahill

I'm like, I can review you as a person. Like, knowing that you've got knowledge in this subject. But I'm not reviewing your course. I haven't taken I'm just not doing Yeah, putting my name on something.

Marion Tan

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And it's different. You know, it's very subjective. I mean, clearly, you have your own beliefs. She also have her own beliefs. And yeah, and just really,

Molly Cahill

she's not a bad person. Right. It's just like, just different. Yep. Yep. And when I think about human centered branding, I think about well, first, I was thinking that Brene Brown quote, that's like, we are feeling beings who occasionally think Have you ever heard that I might be butchering it. However, I'm Haley Maximizer. I'm like, Haley, maybe you can look up the actual quote and put it in the show notes. But it talks about how like our emotions draw are the drivers and like, our logical thoughts are riding in the back like yeah, we we like to think that it's the other way around. Yeah, yeah. And so that's when you you look at pages like Lululemon or like branch basics, the cleaner like it's not like our cleaner has this and this, it's like, yeah, showing someone using it or like, I remember Lululemon did like a funny, like, boob Chronicles, like, it was so funny, talking about, I don't remember that. It was years ago. But it's like, you know, the products. Yes, they do make an appearance and they have to write it's for those more like analytical things like you do, obviously, you can't just talk talk around it, or I think about the Amazon commercial, I don't know. It's probably didn't air over there. But it was in the wintertime. And it was these three old women who wanted to ride like sleds in the snow. And but they were all old, and so their butts hurt. And so the girlfriend gets online, gets on Amazon and buys like cushions, the cushions for all of us, like in their tailbone, and then they're all like wavy, like riding it. And it's like, that has nothing to do. It's just like, it makes you feel something. And that's what I think of human centered brand. That's what I think so I don't know if you have something to add to that. Yeah,

Marion Tan

no, I absolutely agree. It's really the story that you tell you know, the experience that you create, or even thinking of an example earlier where you know, human centered branding is all about like for example for for you. You work with a lot of chiropractors, you know, health and wellness providers. So the question is more of how can we make go into a chiropractor, feel like a treat to themselves are a step to a better future versus something that is required of them that they're paying for or else they're going to be miserable for the rest of their lives? You know, say more

Molly Cahill

say more about Got that because that we kind of get into like, well, we'll go back to how do you build a human centered brand? Nobody forget, but I don't want to lose this momentum. You and I connected over this about not marketing around pain points. I think I think pain points to some degree or okay, but I don't like fear, like fear. Yeah. Marketing.

Marion Tan

Yeah, jumping off from what I said, I think, again, it's because building a brand is all about building an experience, right like people don't necessarily buy a product or service, or the or the service jumping off of, you know, what you said about us being emotional buyers they buy based on how they feel they buy based on what the brand stands for the message, you know, the stories that the brand tells, again, the experience that they're being taken through as they go through that customer journey and becoming someone who transacts with the brand. So in terms of pain point, marketing, I know this is a hot topic, and also love to hear your take on this too, as well. For me, I don't necessarily subscribe to pain point marketing. I don't think it's, but I'll define what pain point marketing is because I feel like we would agree on this because I feel like not a lot of people also know how to describe pain point marketing, or what it actually is. But I personally don't think that it's necessary to bring to light you know, people's trauma and vulnerabilities to reinforce the benefit of what you offer. Yeah. And, you know, I think when you build your brand, or the brand experience around pain, false urgency, you also sort of tend to attract people who feel victimized by their circumstance. And therefore, they expect you to sort of save them, and they end up becoming codependent in what you offer. And if it so happens that your offer or your service doesn't work for them. They sort of blame you. I don't know if you've experienced that. Hopefully you haven't, hopefully. But I know it's a

Molly Cahill

thing. Yeah, no, I mean, I had I had a customer or potential client reach out to me was about a year ago. And the DM said, I've tried everything and nothing is working. I've saved 1000s of dollars, the market is way too saturated. And I can't and I was like I said something very nice. But I was basically like, God can't help you. Like, I don't want it coming to me in that state.

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah. And I guess you know, more than that, on the receiving end, it's just never a great feeling to be bombarded with voices and messaging, highlighting how miserable you are, you know, and calling out your circumstance, even if you didn't willingly put yourself in that situation. Personally, I do this thing, you know, there's a more compassionate way of calling out or bring attention, bringing your attention to areas for growth and personal development versus making someone feel like they're incapable, which is what I would refer to as you know, aspirational messaging or desire driven messaging. And it goes back to what it means to be build a human centered brand, where you want to treat your audience the same way you would treat them in real life. And in turn, you also attract people who have the initiative who are empowered to create results for themselves when your support, not just solely rely on you to save them or solve their problem. That's how I, yeah, kind

Molly Cahill

of like the difference in coaching and consulting. I feel like consulting is like, do this. And coaching is like, well, let's walk through it. Yeah.

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah. But in any case, you're still the, you're still the captain of your own ship, right? Like you are an independent individual with full autonomy, you make the decisions. So at the end of the day, no matter how much advice you receive, or whatever someone tells you, it's going to be on mute, because you're the main decision maker, it's your business. And I think when you speak to the Empowered version of the individual, that's also the kind of people that you attract. So it's like a win win situation for both the founder of the service provider and their clients. There's a caveat to that, though. And I think there's a difference between speaking to pain points and tension points. And I think tension points provide a way of speaking about someone's struggles or showing empathy, that you understand what they're going through without necessarily inflicting harm, trauma, shame, or as you mentioned, you know, fear. Ooh, yes.

Molly Cahill

So yeah, I usually think of it as fear just because I work with so many pediatric chiropractors and some of the content that is put out is all around your baby's spine gets misaligned at the slightest touch and like who, what? I don't want to book an appointment with you coming from that. Like how terrifying is that you don't I mean, like we already have, so So many things to think about as a mom, you're telling me if I change their diaper wrong that yeah, you know and so I made a actually like a six minute long reel about it and it it went crazy which you would never think like that breaks every rule of Instagram, right like six minute long. It's not even real at that point. It's like a

Marion Tan

podcast episodes. Yeah.

Molly Cahill

And so it's not saying you can't say things like, hey, Mama, if you're up all night was you know if you're at can we workshop this? Actually I don't want to put you on the spot. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Here for it. Let's talk about a mom who's struggling with like, their baby has colic. They're up online crying. Moms exhausted, they're kind of desperate at their wit's end. Like what would we the non pain point version of? Yeah, like the aspirational version of of marketing to that? Yeah,

Marion Tan

yeah, I think let's say something that was very simple. And I think a lot of people fenders said, maybe pain point marketing would be losing sleep over your kids or over your baby, you know, like, this is what you're doing wrong. Or if you don't invest in this, you're losing hours of sleep, or, you know, instead of, you know, saving time or getting your sleep back, something like that, like really highlighting, this is what you're doing wrong. Here's what you're supposed to do. Right? So, in contrast, desire driven or aspirational marketing would be something like losing sleep over your baby, here's how we can help. Here's how we can go through this together. You know, like, I see you, Mama. I've been there. Let's go through it. Yeah, so it's, it's the same message. But it's a very subtle difference. And it makes no difference, right? Like, but it makes such a huge impact, because you're speaking to them in a different tone, you're showing them that, you know, I may not fully understand your situation, I know that this is what you struggle with. That's okay, I'm here to help. Let's figure it out together, instead of shoving it in their face, that they're incapable and that they're doing everything wrong, when they don't even want to be in that situation anymore. And that for displays well,

Molly Cahill

and I find tell me, if you've experienced this with your clients, we serve a similar client, I found that more holistic health providers want. Like their whole, you know, ethos is, hey, conventional medicine is great and life saving, in many ways. But like, here's where we can actually like help keep you well, essentially, right? Yeah, yeah, then unknowingly. And I don't think people do this. Like, I don't think health and wellness providers do this on purpose. But it's like, unknowingly. They make it worse, because they create a sense of fear. Like your water is bad in the air is toxic. And the end, you're just like, yeah, yeah, like, I wish I just like I was better off not knowing any of this. So I get that. Yeah, I think there's like a fine line of educating. Oh, yeah, but also not scaring the crap out of people. Yeah,

Marion Tan

yeah,

Molly Cahill

you have a take on that? Yeah,

Marion Tan

I, I definitely see that. And I think you don't have to put another method down to bring yourself because people will always have different takes, it will not always apply to a certain person, let's say or a certain lifestyle. You know, like being completely taking the holistic route, there are some people who would need like, more, I guess, technical, medical attention, there are some people where that will not work and would take, you know, an alternative route. So I think it's all about balance, you know, just talk about what makes yours, like, just talk about your strengths, don't put, don't put others down, you know, or if you do want to make the comparison, knowledge, acknowledge to that. It's not black and white. Now you like acknowledge their independence again, and autonomy to make decisions for themselves. These are the things that you have to consider in making this decision. This route is going to be the best for you, if you're in this, this and this. On the other hand, this route is going to be fitting for you if you're this, this and this. So again, it's not dictating what you're shooting for, or shaming, you're still very firm about your offers and your strengths. But again, you're, as you mentioned, like educating, supporting people in making their decisions on their own, without imposing or dictating, telling them. I am right, everyone else is wrong.

Molly Cahill

Yes. So you talked about, I said we would go back to this, like how do you build a human centered brand and I know, you're like, Well, you know, there's no framework or like questionnaire that's everybody's So nuance which I love. But can you just kind of talk about how you like, figuring out what that is? With your? Yeah,

Marion Tan

absolutely. So when I work with my clients, you know, in developing their brands, as I mentioned, it always begin with a brand strategy workshop. It's not as rigid as and structured as people think it is. It's just like how it's called in the industry, you know, grand strategy. So that's what I refer. That's what I refer to, as, but in that workshop, we really dive into the core of what the brand is going to be all about, I cover four phases, their purpose, you know, their mission, their why they're positioning, what makes them different. We were talking earlier, about how sometimes there are things about you about your brilliance and your strengths that you may not have articulated previously. But I've always been there. So that's what we cover in positioning, we also build the perception. So considering that these are the internal, this is the internal foundation of your brand, how do we translate that visually and verbally, there are people who will have a very natural way of letting that that get across, there are some people who really do have a hard time translating what's internal into an external expression of their brand. And the last one most important would be, of course, their people. Who is it that we're really building this brand for. And I know that we were talking about initially, before this podcast, we were talking about, you know, niching down all that and this advice is going to be probably wheeled out, because it's such a common advice that you hear all the time. But to build a human centered brand, you know, one that is really known, recognized and loved, it really stems from understanding your audience. And yet, so many people don't know what it means to know or get to know the people that they're serving, like the back of their hands. So common advice that a lot of people I know would see would be to find their age, occupation, what else salary, all that those are important to an extent. But what you really want to find out is to what goes on in their days in their minds in their hearts, so that you can be a natural and central part of their lives without being intrusive, or without making the brand to consumer brand to client relationship feel transactional. So for example, you could be a chiropractor, you work with just very generic, you know, like you work with stay at home moms, you know, they could have different they can like this stay at home, mom could have one kid that stayed at home mom could have maybe another job, you know, like they could have different nuances in the the other detailed statistical details of like who they are. But again, you really want to get to know them on a deeper level. So what I do with my clients is, I invite them to really put themselves in the shoes of the people that they want to be serving. And we go as deep as asking questions like, how does your ideal client speak to themselves? You know, like, what did the voice in their head sound like? What kind of person do they want to be? Who do they want to be? What something that they are afraid of? acknowledging what they know is something that's holding them back. Because you know, when you have the answer to these questions, you can then apply that learning into how you execute your brand, which you can see in your copy, tone of voice and eventually how you present your brand, via your logo, fonts and colors. So that's a very brief overview of the level of intention and meaning, and thought that goes into defining and building your brand. Again, not everyone has to go through this process because it can come to them naturally. I think that's what happens. That's what it is for you. That's also what it is. For me. I didn't take myself through like a very formal process, because it's natural to me. But there are some people who need that help me that fuel in articulating and someone to help them facilitate that thought process and brainstorming process.

Molly Cahill

I would say to is like to go into it if you're just starting out knowing that it's going to change and evolve. Yeah, because I think people just want to like get it right the first time. And that just doesn't there's no, there's no such thing as like getting it right.

Marion Tan

I mean, exactly.

Molly Cahill

I mean, I think about how much my business has evolved just in five years. I mean, yeah. And I'll say the last few students I've gotten for holistic marketing hub and the last few clients, we've gotten an insecure Management Agency, our textbook, like, I was like, Oh my gosh, you're like my muse come to life. Like, I'm so like, I that's one way I gauge like okay is what I'm putting out there. Moved. Yeah, right. Yeah. And the same thing with like, you know, health coaches like say you help with, you know, menopausal women who stubborn you know weight loss all that kind of you know low energy. I would say that would be how you would gauge it if you're in that situation like, Are you only getting people who come to you who are wanting you to be their mother and give them a quick fix? Or are you getting? You know, that's kind of how you gauge if it's, if it's on par with? I don't know.

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah, I know, I always say that clarity comes from taking action.

Molly Cahill

Yes, if that's what I'm trying to say, thank you, Mary.

Marion Tan

I got my pick that off. You said it, you said you explained it very well. But if you're not in a position, or let's say your business model isn't. So for example, if you have a clinic, and you know, the brand is bigger than you, there's always married to having no brand strategy, you know, if you have a team so that it says if one person is, you know, running the whole thing about for personal brands, in particular, if you're not in a position to invest, you know, in brand strategy or like be working with a brand strategist. Yeah, that's what I say. I always say that clarity comes from taking action, because the more that you take action, the more you can sort of cross check with the people that you're speaking to, or the people that you're serving. And as you take that action, as you move along further, you can see what sticks, what feels aligned with you and kind of see what gives you the EQ as well. My business has also evolved, like so much since I started and it just like, if I'm not sure about something, I'll just try it out. See if it works, see if eventually i like it if I do keep it if not, then I'll let go of it. So that's kind of how you love

Molly Cahill

trying to I'm gonna bring back one on one coaching again, and then I'll do it and I'm like, Okay, I liked these parts. I didn't like this. Let me take this offer off the table rework it, put it out there again, we we were doing VIP days a couple years ago, and I don't call it a failure like we've we've made a lot with their our revenue was great from the VIP days. But unfortunately, I wasn't doing a good job of like clarifying or filtering the people the offer was right for it. It wasn't on purpose. And so I had people who wanted a lower cost option of working with me, then you know, being on a month to month retainer, get the VIP days, but then that wasn't the right fit for them because they had all this content we've created and they never posted it and they just just sat there. So I'm like, this isn't what you needed. And I did do a disservice. I just said I didn't mean to obviously. But it's if I had never just done it if I had sat there and tinkered with it and tinkered with it and tinkered with it, and never actually put it out in the world. I wouldn't have

Marion Tan

that data would know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh, I love

Molly Cahill

that and like quoting you on that. Okay, so the last thing we're going to talk about and we're going to wrap up is how can our audience start to adapt ethical branding and marketing practices in the way that they run their businesses. And it's like, we've talked about this a lot. But I'd like to end with some more. You know, practical tips

Marion Tan

Moabite tips aren't actually that practical.

Molly Cahill

Continue, they may well be practical tips. Go ahead.

Marion Tan

I guess to you know, infuse more human more human centered approach to your the way that you build your brand, the way that you carry out your brand, I guess it's always to have some sort of standard. So whether you have like a full blown brand strategy, or just a statement, document that defines what it is that you're allowing in your brand, or like you want to be doing as a brand and the things that you're that's absolutely off limits, I think that'll help keep you in check as you grow your brand. And you know, it doesn't have to be as complicated as as others would make it out to be. And I think all it really takes is just a genuine curiosity and compassion for the experiences and perspectives of your audience. If you're not sure, whether a piece of content is insensitive to put out or, or the way that you carry out your claim process is appropriate and and try consulting with someone who might be more familiar with a topic or get a second opinion from your business friend, you know, it's all about educating yourself on how to be more inclusive and empathetic and slowly incorporate those learnings into your brand. That's how I personally started taking a more human centered approach to my business. It's just really educating myself reading up on how to you know how to be more inclusive, how to adapt approaches that are really take into consideration what people are feeling versus just using or going for the next trendy marketing strategy that I see. Yeah. So

Molly Cahill

can you give me an example of what that might look like? Like what what could be included versus what should Never be included.

Marion Tan

So like, for example, let me think, I think for me, I have, I have a mini Brand Book. It's like, roadmap that I have, for me a brand. And I think there's a page there, if I remember correctly. Also, I have this, because sometimes I would hire contractors on people to help me out. With just content, no marketing, there's a very clear section there that said, this is how we speak to our audience. This is how we don't speak to our audience. So think there's this I don't remember what's written there was exactly written there. But I think, in this is what we do. Of course, like, incorporates ethical practices, you know, like, this is how you build your brand. Here are branding strategies that will help you increase your revenue increase results for your business, and then what's not in the don't do this column. Things like, thanks for doing wrong, your brand. These are the top three mistakes you're doing with a person I see. Yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah. And also, you know, with, with culture, with the way that you operate your business, so maybe in the things that, how you behave as a brand, maybe it can be something like, always give your audience you know, space and time to make a decision, then things that you don't want to be doing as a brand would be taking payments during the call, you know, and like making them decide during a call, you know, stuff like that stuff that you would allow in your brand and stuff that are off limits, or you think aren't aligned with the way that you want to be operating. I

Molly Cahill

love that. Those are great examples to wrap up. So I'm gonna give people a way to work with you. But to wrap up before that, what would you say is like, if you were to leave everyone with like, one practical tip say they've, you know, already been in business already established all of this, like, what's kind of like a health check? They can do? Yeah, on their brand. Yeah,

Marion Tan

I think the thing that I would say is, because you know, when you build a brand, like you have this perception that everything has to be in place, everything has to be perfect, especially now our topic is about human centered branding, I suppose, you know, people would be thinking, Oh, how can I say this in the perfect manner? How can I be super empathetic, super ethical about, you know, what I'm doing? And sometimes that thought can be paralyzing. I think, you know, in any aspect of business, and I think, just always remember that no one's perfect. And you're always going to cause harm, you know, no matter how hard you try. But that's expected. You know, when I started out, there were things that I did or said that I felt like worked during that phase. But my current cell would approve of that today. But, you know, that cost me the nature of the market that we're in of the business that we're doing, because it's always shifting, it's always evolving. And I guess what's really important is the accountability that you take and the commitment that you make, in making sure that your brand constantly evolves, as the market evolves as you evolve. And that you always have the intention of contributing something positive to the lives of the people that you serve, to the best of your ability. So take it easy, you know, don't stress too much about the rules or the standards because it just takes away the authenticity of new showing up as your brand as yourself.

Molly Cahill

I love that. We tell my seven year old daughter, we don't say practice makes perfect around here in our house. I just think that's a terrible. Yeah, practice isn't makeup. Yeah, perfect is not the goal. We tell her practice makes improvement.

Speaker 1

Oh, I love that. Progress. Yeah, yeah.

Molly Cahill

And it's all it's more about. Okay. Like you said, there's probably things you're you wouldn't approve of now, but the only thing that matters is that you took action and then you pivoted or made it and made an adjustment or like, oh, yeah, I don't want to do that anymore. And then you took action on that, like, it doesn't really matter. That you didn't quote, get it right that like it is it just, I'm such a quick, like, visceral decision maker to I'm like, like, even when I started this podcast is like, I'm gonna start a podcast and I had a first episode like a month later. Like, I'm not and maybe it's to my detriment sometimes. And I don't spend a ton of time. I mean, I've had the podcast for a little over a year, and I've changed the podcast description on the players four times.

Marion Tan

Oh, my god, yeah. Valid. VO the first

Molly Cahill

time I'm like, Okay, this works. This works for lunch. Like, I just want to get it out. And then I'm like, you know? And then I noticed that the first line in the description said like, as a health and wellness professional, social media can feel overwhelming, and I'm like, why am I? Why am I planting the seed that social media is overwhelming? Like, that's what I want my brand to be. And it was like that for like a solid six months before I was like, wait a minute, I don't want to say that.

Molly Cahill

Again, so you just got Do it. Yeah,

Marion Tan

absolutely. Yeah. Human Centered brands, human beings always evolve. Your brand will naturally evolve as well.

Molly Cahill

Well, look how much people loved the HBO intern debacle. Do you remember that a couple years ago? Yeah, I think yeah, I saw that. When he sent out Twitter. Oh, what did he do? He sent an email. I don't remember what it was like, this was like, supposed to be an internal email and it got sent. I don't remember what it was. But it was. And people loved it. You know, people loved it. Because they were like, Oh, my gosh, oh, it's HBO a multimillion dollar? You know what I mean? Like, I saw that. Like, it's just so permission giving. So anyway, yeah. Sure. Marian, how can people find you work with you? What do you got?

Marion Tan

Yeah, yeah, you could check me out on Instagram always there, it's hard to and hone. The link, I suppose will be in the show notes, it will be the same part in Holan. If you want to work together on either your brand strategy or design, I do have offers for that, as well. I'm brand strategy intensive, where we really hone your messaging, if you need that starting point in articulating what you do, how you help, what makes it different. And if you're ready to translate that into your professional design, have your visual identity, really be reflective of who you are, and also offer design services. And also I have a couple of resources, you go to harden one.com forward slash resources, you could book a free brand audit, where I share with you three immediate steps you could take to take your brand to the

Molly Cahill

next level. I love it. Well, I am gonna go get those resources myself, because I'm just obviously I teach Instagram, right. But so much of what I teach really has nothing to do with Instagram. It's more about messaging brands like those foundations that would carry you through email marketing your website. Yeah, speak to patients, your branding on your so but I'm definitely not a branding expert. But I am learning. So I love learning from people like you. Thank you so much, Marian, and spending time with us today.

Marion Tan

You too. This has been a wonderful conversation. Molly. Thank you so much.

Molly Cahill

Thank you for listening to holistic marketing simplified. This podcast is brought to you by my marketing roadmap, which is a five episode private audio training that's kind of like this podcast, but not exactly because it's not available to the general public when you search on your podcast feed. So the great thing about consuming free content like this for me or on my Instagram or my blogs, or whatever it is that yes, you will learn a lot but you kind of have to go searching for what it is exactly you're looking for. This five episode private podcast is broken down in a logical step by step order. That's why it's called a roadmap. So you're ready to get started on your Instagram marketing journey. Or if you already are started and you're just feel like you're kind of like overwhelmed with all of the different free information. This is a super clear roadmap with lots of tangible step by step action items that will get you from point A to point B for just $27. So all you have to do is head to Mollie cahill.com/private training. And based on the reviews I've had so far, I know you won't be disappointed. I'm really proud of this training. And I know personally, I've bought 2737 $17 products before and felt like I really didn't get that much out of it. I guarantee you, you will learn something from this five episode, private audio feed. So again, it's just Molly cahill.com/private training. And it'll also be linked below in the show notes. I cannot wait to hear what you think. And hey, you know how every podcaster at the very end of their episode asks you to rate and review their podcast. Well, that's because it's super important. These podcasts take a lot of time and heart and effort to produce to bring you free information. So in order for me to be able to continue doing that we need more people to find out about the show. So if you could please just take like two minutes out of your very busy day to leave me a rating and share this on your Instagram stories and tag at Molly a K Hill. That's c h i ll I would greatly greatly appreciate your support. I truly appreciate you so much. I know your time is valuable and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

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