Episode 69: Work smarter, not harder: How to create high leverage content that converts to new clients with Jana Osofsky

Molly: Hello there pumpkins and welcome back to the show. I am fresh off, uh, what I'm dubbing Molly's Southeastern. I was just, I was calling it Molly's world tour, but I was like, no, it's my Southeastern tour. I was actually gone for weekends in a row, Thursday through Sunday, back to back. And I am late tired.

The first weekend was actually here locally. It was my friend's wedding who just happens to be from Cincinnati where I live now, but we still stayed at the hotel all weekend for the wedding. Then I went to Nashville for Dr. Stephanie Wigner, the wealthy practitioner scale up event, which was fantastic. Um, y'all should follow her if you don't.

Then the weekend after that was my first ever content creation retreat in Charleston, which freaking life giving. I should probably do an episode just like talking about the retreat and I'll definitely do it next year, but I don't know that I will go much bigger. Just because, you know, it's like an intimate group and we created a whole bunch of content and it was just, oh my gosh, it was just so amazing.

We had a singing bowl. A meditation with one of my clients, Kristen Svets. We had a subconscious session with my coach, Chelsea Haynes. It was just amazing. And then the weekend after that, this past weekend, I was in Savannah with the social squad society with Emily Schwalbach and Shannon McKinstry. And they're all of them, um, for another content creation retreat.

So I have got enough. B roll and content ideas and everything to like 2026 at this point on my phone and both the Charleston and Savannah had brand photos. So I was like, yeah. So anyway, my eye is twitching. I'm literally about to go get an adjustment. I think I'm going to go back to twice a week adjustments until I can kind of get back regulated.

But I definitely wanted to make sure I squeezed in this interview with my friend, Jana. She, um, Jana and I have been in each other's circles for, I don't know, probably like two years now. And I just, I love the way she teaches kind of like content marketing and she's, Jan is a marketing expert, content strategist, and Pinterest educator for coaches, service providers, and other online experts, but she mostly specializes in like health life.

coaches, like, you know, kind of like the like personal improvement type coaches. And she has this really cool way of looking at creating content. She calls it her high leverage content. And it's just like a system that she teaches, like this like proprietary system that she teaches. And it's super cool. So in today's episode, we're going to talk a lot about working smarter and not harder and why it is not only okay, but strategic to double down on saying the same things over and over and over again.

I hope you have a fantastic day and thanks for having me in your ears. Welcome to Holistic Marketing Simplified, a podcast for health and wellness professionals looking to simplify their marketing. I'm your host, Molly Cahill, and this podcast is brought to you by My Marketing Roadmap, which is a five episode private audio training that's kind of like this podcast, but not exactly because it's not available to the general public.

when you search on your podcast feed. So the great thing about consuming free content like this for me or on my Instagram or my blogs or whatever is that yes, you will learn a lot, but you kind of have to go searching for what it is exactly you're looking for. This five episode private podcast is broken down in a logical step by step order.

It's why it's called a roadmap. If you're ready to get started on your Instagram marketing journey, or if you already are started and you just feel like you're kind of like overwhelmed with all of the different free information, this is a super clear roadmap with lots of tangible step by step action items that will get you from point a to point B.

for just 27. So all you have to do is head to mollykahill. com slash private training. And based on the reviews I've had so far, I know you won't be disappointed.

Kaitlyn Ross: Hi, I'm Caitlin Ross, a virtual counselor based in Rock Hill, South Carolina. And I love listening to the Holistic Marketing Simplified Podcast.

Molly: All right, Jana, thank you so much for being here. I cannot believe, listen, you've been in my sphere now for a couple of years, right?

Jana: For sure. Yeah. I remember I met you way back when we did our, our first summit together.

Yeah.

Molly: And I was like, wait a minute. You've never been on the podcast. That's not okay. Um, so I've done your more like formal intro, but tell us a little bit about you. How'd you get here? Where do you give us some personal stuff too? We don't just need the boring. I'm a Pinterest educator. I want to hear.

Jana: Yeah. Um, so I've been in business for about eight years. Um, I run my business from South Florida where we live and we travel a good deal. And we, as my husband and my dog Rue and, um, a couple of, so I, I have, I've spent the past like seven plus years, eight plus years really now helping people with Pinterest and with content strategy.

And about a year ago, I formally kind of Created, um, I formally segued into the content strategy piece and really embraced what people have been asking me for, for so long. So now I'm really considering myself like a content strategist and Pinterest educator. So those are my two loves. And that's a little bit about me.

And I'm so glad to be here. Yeah.

Molly: Same. You primarily work with health and wellness coaches. So if you want to expand on that a little, cause I feel like it's such a broad term, but I was like, I like to add a little color.

Jana: Yeah. Yeah. I, I always say like, We have a lot of overlap in our audiences. Um, I work with a lot of health and wellness and self improvement coaches.

So many are health and wellness, like squarely in the health and wellness space. And then some of them are also in, um, like the relationships and dating and marriage types of spaces. So I consider that health, um, and wellness and self improvement because it's really, you know, about, about your, your mental wellness in a lot of ways.

But, um, yeah, those types of coaches, people who serve clients online primarily.

Molly: Yeah. Oh, that was maybe my next question. Do you ever work with any like a brick and mortar?

Jana: I don't know. I mean, not in my current iteration of my business. Um, I have had past lives where I worked with local businesses, including my own family's business that I was a marketing and salesperson for, for years.

But that was, you know, that was a life ago, right?

Molly: Yeah. I only asked cause I kind of talked about this to you before I hit record, but I just, I do work with a lot of brick and mortar. Chiropractors, acupuncturists, functional medicine providers, and so many of them now are adding some type of online component to their work.

And I believe, see, I didn't talk about this before we hit record because I want the live reaction because you might not agree with me here. And if we disagree, that is okay. But I think When the pandemic happened, I don't want to say people were sold a lie necessarily, because I don't really think most people had ill intentions, but it was like, create a course.

And now you're going to have all this passive income. And then they didn't really actually talk about all the work that goes into creating quote, passive income.

Jana: Yeah, no, definitely true. I think it's hard when you are someone who works in person with clients or online with clients. And really at the end of the day, when you look at your schedule, you spent a lot of time every week with clients and that's what we want.

If we want clients, we want to serve them. But then when you go to add like a passive income stream, like, cause because you hear from other people that maybe, you know, it'll work and I'll add this passive income stream. I you're right. I think people do downplay a lot when they're talking about how great passive income is, um, how much of the.

Work you have to put into it. Like it, it's not really passive. It's more like leveraged income. So I agree with you. I think a lot of people got that term leveraged

Molly: income because yeah, I do think it can eventually become passive. Um, I'm not saying it can't, but if you're seeing like 20, 30, 40, you know, however many patients Monday through Friday, or even three days a week.

Um, and then, you know, you're, you've got a family or whatever. You don't just create this course and it's like, poof, all of a sudden, all these people know about you. So that's why I love your work so much is because I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, your whole ethos, it's kind of like. Work smarter, not harder.

How can we create these like workhorse pieces of content and make them continue working for us? I know this is what you teach inside your high leverage content program and you talk. So, okay. I was reading over your questions and I was like, wait, what, what, because you always come up on my feed. The algorithm knows I like you, so I see your stuff and I like it and I'm always like, yes, yes.

What Jana said, but. Okay, I'm going to read this and I was like clutching my pearls. Is it possible for our Southern girl sayings, wait, where are you in South Florida? Um, deep South Florida. So yeah, I always tell people I'm like Florida and the South are not the same thing.

Jana: It's the sixth borough of New York, basically where I live.

Molly: I love it. Yeah. Um, so. So you talk about their health and wellness coaches can create 12 really strategic pieces of content and then reap the marketing benefits over and over and over.

Jana: Yeah. The concept that I teach about inside of high leverage content, that it's the concept that's like at the core of my course and my program and the system that it's built around.

Is the idea that you can create 12 strategic pieces of long form content, and so that's really where that that's a big part of it is investing the time and creating longer form content, and people think it's going to take a long time, but it really at the end of the day doesn't, and it ends up being a time saver over time as well, because you get to re leverage it over and over again.

And making sure that those pieces of content are so hyper strategic, um, in the first half of the program, basically what we do is we choose topics and we don't just choose topics based on whatever you want to create about. We choose topics based on what I believe are the nine pillars, the things that people need to hear and learn and understand more deeply to be ready to buy.

So if you create content that's highly strategic like that, and you create content that's rich, um, and one of the reasons I love longer form content is because it's very rich. Um, and also in my book, I think it converts faster as well, but when it's really rich and in depth, you can go into it many, many times over and over and repurpose the entire thing, pieces of it.

You can turn it into, you know, Micro content, of course, for your different channels. You can use it to reshare over and over those main messages that you know you've developed that you know are the most important things that people need to learn and hear and understand to be ready to buy. So it's really all about creating that and then moving into a phase of your business where you're repeating and leveraging that.

And we talked a little before we hit record about this, when that happens, it's like it really in reality and practicality, what it ends up being is you're repeating your message like 85 to 90 percent of the time, it's just repetition. And then 10 to 15 percent of the time. You're like, Oh, I came up with a new thing.

I want to say, right. And that's cool. Like we're always going to have new things and you can add them into the rotation if they work well. Um, but it's really focused on like 85 to 90 percent is just repeating what you already know works. Um, so that's really what it's all about. And in that sense, yeah, totally.

Like. Leverage baby leverage. I love

Molly: it. And I told you, I was like, how funny that literally the last two reels I've posted one was about, um, it was that straight to jail. You're going to go right to jail audio that I created when I was on the social squad society retreat about, um, what business owners think will happen if they reuse their content.

And it's so funny because, and I'm not knocking people's questions. I'm really not, I'm just, I don't know about you. I'm not a type A personality. Um, what are you more? Yeah.

Jana: You are. Yeah. I'm totally

Molly: like,

Jana: okay. Yeah.

Molly: Um, okay. So maybe it's not as type a thing. Maybe it's just like, maybe because I've been actively like running so many Instagram accounts for so long that I just can't stress enough that when it comes to Instagram specifically, it's not like this formula in terms of like, people want it to be a formula, like.

If I post a carousel on Monday and a reel on Tuesday and this story on Wednesday, and I'm like, it doesn't work that way. But again, why I see our work. So like, like why I always agree with everything I see you posting is I actually posted a real last week. I think I should send you this one too. It just said like, Um, the question is not, you know, should this be a real, should this be a carousel?

It's more like, is my message actually the thing that my person needs to hear? And so I have a hard time because people want me to teach that way, right? People want me to tell them, Molly, just tell me, right, post a carousel Monday and this post on too. I'm like, and it doesn't work that way. What really works is that.

that core, um, I guess you would say like strategic. I don't want to say pieces of content. What do you call it? Messaging? What do you kind of call it in your,

Jana: I mean, sometimes I call it messages, but really because my program is a long form content creation program for most in practicality for most of my clients, it's a blog post.

And then in other, or we like to call them articles too, because I have this whole thing, like you're not a blogger, you're a coach with a blog. Like that's totally, these are completely different animals. So I hate to say blog. Post, even though that's what people call it, because people start thinking like, Oh, blogger, you know, I have to have this and that and all the bells and whistles and whatnot, when you really just need like a simple, straightforward place to, you know, document and get across, um, you know, your best, your, your main messages.

I say messages, but it's either a blog posts or a podcast episodes or YouTube videos that are longer, not the shorts on YouTube, but longer. Those are really the three main types of content. Okay. Long form content that I teach. Yeah.

Molly: But I guess the question more is not like the nuts and bolts of the type of content, but like you said, there was like not, you said nine pillars.

Jana: Yeah, exactly. And those are things that, you know, represent or that show people that really showcase, I should say, your expertise. And they are things that shift people's beliefs from where they are now to where they would need to be to be ready, um, to hire you. So it's, you know, bringing in like, okay, what do they believe that's true that they think is getting in the way of success with you or success in general in your space, you know, exploring those things.

It is. Really about content that creates the demand for the offers that you have and content that also creates the trust that people need in you, um, and in themselves, by the way, that's important to, to be able to, um, pull the trigger, you know, and, and make the decision to, to hire you or to book with you.

And this goes back to what you were saying is like, people really want it to be formulaic. They want it to be. Like you said, a real on, you know, Tuesdays and a carousel on Thursdays and whatnot. And I agree with you. There's a little bit of a sense, I think when people have a lot of questions like that, like I understand they want that structure, but I also think, and I, I hope this doesn't sound like negative or something, but I think that sometimes people.

Get a little obsessed with the structure because they're sort of avoiding making the decisions about what it is that actually needs to be in the content, the messages themselves, right?

Kaitlyn Ross: So that's

Jana: when I, when I identified that that's what was going on, I was like, I want to solve that for people. Like, I want to, I want to bring in a system that shows you.

Not only like the format of what to post or teaches the certain algorithmic whatever's or whatnot, but actually helps you figure out what you need to say to convert, right? What do people in your audience, not in the general world, but in your audience need to hear and learn and understand more deeply to be ready to hire you or book with you, whatever it is that you want them to do next.

Molly: Yes. Yes. And that's why, again, like I feel like our work is so, um, like synergistic because it's like, yeah, the question's not, Oh, does this need to be carousel? The question is, does it matter? It doesn't matter what, where this marketing piece is, is, is, is the message is the, you know, like you kind of talked about your pillars, like, is it addressing the things to get ready to people to buy?

Like going, like thinking about the different awareness, do you ever talk about awareness levels in your. Your course. Yeah. I

Jana: mean, I don't, I didn't structure the program around the five, like, you know, levels of buyer awareness. Um, in the sense I didn't, I don't pull that out and teach it. Although I have a bonus long story that kind of has some of that.

Um, but essentially I am pulling, I'm drawing from some of that, the idea that there are certain things people need to hear when they're new to you, or if you want to speak the marketing speak like top of funnel versus what people need when they're more in the consideration phase and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah.

But I don't call out like those necessarily like the five stages, but I think about a lot, but

Molly: no, I teach it more. I teach it more like you as well. I'm like, I call it my content ecosystem. It's like, There's certain types of content that's going to be, Ooh, let's cast a wide net, bring people into your sphere.

And then there's certain types of content, like the really meaty, like call it a carousel on Instagram, call it a blog post, whatever they're like meteor content. that's usually the thing that's going to not look as quote sexy and get go viral and get to, but it's actually the thing that makes someone book with you.

Yep.

Jana: Yep. It's what they need in the middle. And at the end. So before we close out

Molly: and I go on to my next question, is there anything like anything more you want to elaborate on these kind of like nine pillars? Are they the same for everyone? Are they? Yeah.

Jana: I mean, yeah, they are essentially the same, but you part of the work, this is what we're talking about, right?

Is it's like, it's not, it, it, It is different for each person. And part of the work that we need to do as marketers is figuring out what our audience needs, um, and organizing them, you know, into, in my case, the way I organize it into nine pillars. But I think, you know, the only other thing that is important to just sort of touch on, and I think we're going to talk about this a lot anyway, but is this idea that if you create 12 pieces of content and then you're reusing and resharing, and this comes back to your reel the other day, One of the things that kind of gets in people's way of doing this is that they are worried about that repetition.

So I, I want to encourage everyone to remember that repetition is actually really important. So I think we'll talk about that a little bit more, but that's I think what I want to draw out of that too.

Molly: One more clarifying question. I think sometimes when people hear nine pillars, they think about like the typical content buckets or content pillars.

And I feel like what you're talking about is different than that.

Jana: I would, yeah, I would say that it is different. It's not, um, it's, I think of, so I think of content buckets and this is just the way I think of it. It's not necessarily right or wrong, but as like your topics, like the things that you write that you, so for me, for example, my buckets might be, I talk about blogging and I talk about, you know, running, um, a business as an online coach.

And I talk about Pinterest marketing and I talk about visibility and you know, so those would be like the topics for me. Um, and pillars for me are more about the strategy behind it. Yeah. Yeah.

Molly: Yeah. And that's what I tell people too. Like you can still have these buckets, like in, in the content ecosystem, kind of the version of it that I teach educational content is one of the pieces in the ecosystem for me.

And it's like underneath just that.

That's when you can have, you know, if you're a health coach, I talk about nutrition and hormones and exercise and whatever, but those, but these nine pillars that you're talking about is not that. I just want to clear that up. Yeah. It's more of a

Jana: strategic thing. It's more about like a buyer psychology.

Yeah. Yes.

Molly: Yes. And that's how my ecosystem is as well. It's like, okay. Here's the different kind of themes and ways we, we can, like you said, the buyer, the buyer psychology. I love that.

Jana: Yeah. Almost like lenses, like sort of lenses that you can look at your different topics through as well. That's another kind of aspect of, of a system like this.

Yeah.

Molly: I've never thought about thinking of it that way. I like that. So they, they're in high leverage content. They've, you know, like you said, the first half is really like working through these nine pillars and then what, like this, then what happens?

Jana: Yeah. So once you have a small, but mighty library of long form content that you can draw from and leverage, that's where things start to get really fun.

And. Like I was saying a minute ago, one of the main reasons it gets fun is because then you start repeating your messages over and over again. And the big reason why that's fun is because when you do that, you make more sales. Um, and making sales is fun. Um, and so. It's interesting because like I said, people often worry about being too repetitive and we can talk about why we people worry about that.

And we can assure people that it's not a problem to be repetitive. But I think the core thing to remember is that the number one reason in my book, why coaches and service based businesses are not making as many sales as they want is because they're not repeating those core messages, those main messages often enough.

And one reason why that's happening is because when they sit down to create content, they're trying to think of new things to say. When really, if you go back and you just repeat the things that you've already said, and that could be repeating them, it could be remixing them, it could be re leveraging them in different ways, that's when that repetition starts to happen and people start to actually know you for your thing.

Uh, people start to trust you more because you're very steadfast and they're like, oh yeah, she talks about that. One analogy I like to make too is like, People worry that their audience is going to get bored and like maybe unfollow them or unsubscribe or something like that if they repeat their messages.

And I get it. I worry about that occasionally too. I catch myself and I have to bring myself, you know, kind of back. But think about like when you go to like a concert for your favorite band. Like the part that you love the most is when they play like their greatest hits, right? That moment where they're like halfway through and they're like, now we're going to play you some stuff from our new album.

That's coming out next January. You're like, um, where's the bathroom.

Kaitlyn Ross: Right.

Jana: So, you know, it's the same thing in online business when you're people who are, um, actually the, your ideal audience who really is considering or will consider buying from you. When they see you repeating your messages, they don't think, Oh, she already said that.

They think, I love when she says that. I love the way she thinks about that. It's so different than what I've heard from other people. Um, you know, I trust her because I remember she said that six months ago and she's still saying it now. So that must mean that she really. Yeah. Is steadfast and knows her stuff and has gone deep to get this level of expertise, you know?

So it really sends these messages to people that actually create that trust and reinforce your messages and get them ready to buy. So repetition is so important and we, we need to catch ourselves when we are spending too much time trying to think of new things to say, rather than just going back to our small but mighty library of content.

This is the way I teach it anyway. And just pulling things out and reusing them and remixing them. Um, and again, repurposing like to micro content for social or emails, literally just resharing, whether that means resharing the same content or, um, sending your email list, the same piece of content, like a blog post or a YouTube video every three months with a different hook or a different spin on it.

I call that pulling one gem out of it as a way to kind of reintroduce the topic again, and then leveraging that content as well. So turning that content into your bigger. more advanced pieces. Like if you are going to speak in some, it's turning that content into some speaking topics. If you get a little more advanced down the road and you want a webinar that will be part of a funnel to sell your course, you can typically, this is what I did anyway, create a webinar based on your most important core pieces of long form content.

So that's how I teach it. The idea that you go back to it in order to repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, because that's what you need to make sales. You need more repetition and less. Yeah. Right.

Molly: There's one thing you said that I want to call out that, um, I love. And it's something I think we don't think about a lot, but especially if you are some type of health and life coach, there's so many fads, right?

Like six months ago was beef liver and six months before that it was celery juice and you know what I mean? And the, and like you said about, and I'm not saying any of these things are good or bad, this is not me speaking on any authority on any of those topics. But what I'm, but I love what you said about, oh, she's still talking about the same thing.

Like it's like you said, that trust piece. I never thought about it that way, but it's so true.

Jana: Yeah. It's like, um, I like to think of it as like steadfastness. People think like, Oh yeah, that's her thing.

Molly: Like

Jana: that's the hill she would die on, you know? And

Molly: yeah,

Jana: yeah. And it really, it does that thing that we talk about all the time in marketing, which is like pulls in just the right people and keeps them with you.

Um, and you know, it deflects people who are like, Oh no, like I don't, I don't want that. Right. I'm not interested in that hill that she said she will die on and,

Molly: and I can

Jana: tell you,

Molly: it really does work. And I mean, I would say it's probably been a slower burn than I would like in my business because now I'm five years in and funny story.

I've always made, do you follow Denise Duffield Thomas? I love her a

Jana: little bit. Yeah. I do. Like, okay. Yeah. Well,

Molly: I used to listen to her podcast religiously, but I don't know why. I just kind of, but anyway, I just, I love her. I love get rich. Like you bitch. Great book. Um, and one of the things she says is to make your password for your computer, your like income goal.

And I was just typing it in this morning. I was like, wait, I hit that. I was like, just this month I was like, I need to, I need to change my. But what's funny about it is how I'm relaying this back to what we're talking about is, um, my, do we share Kate Matheson in common? Do you work with her ever? Um, no, I don't think I know Kate.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. She's on maternity leave light right now. I guess her baby's probably, Four or five months old now. Um, and so she's just, but she has a really great program for health and wellness professionals as well called booked up blueprint. It's more for brick and mortar, but she's just so smart.

And she, so she's like not been on Instagram for months and months. Right. Cause she was on maternity leave. She's not like an active Instagrammer anyway. So she sent me a DM. She's like, Oh, my gosh. I love your new messaging. I have just been binging on your, I was like new messaging. And what's funny is I think I finally just, as to your point, got really clear on who I wanted and started repeating it over and over and over again.

And I would say my at least last 10 sales of my signature, signature program, holistic marketing hub have been dreamy dreamboat.

Kaitlyn Ross: Hello, here's an

Molly: avatar and you are this person. So good. And now I need to change my computer password. So it's just like, it really does work. Like we're not just up here talking about it.

Like as some cool concept that we've, like you said, latched on to some hill we'll die on it's because it actually works.

Jana: Absolutely. It's worked for me over the years. You know, you're saying it works for you. And I see it working for my students and clients all the time. It's amazing how, when you start repeating the main things over and over, you see momentum building faster, your audience grows faster.

You know, people know you more. People start repeating back those messages when you have them on sales calls. You close more of those sales calls. It's amazing.

Molly: Yeah. And it's a two for one because not only are you making more sales, but you're spending less time creating content.

Jana: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so interesting because when we say repurpose content, the first thing people think of is like efficiency and spending less time and like making things easier.

And I think that because that's the de jerk reaction we have, when we think of it, we almost feel guilty sometimes because we're like, Oh, I'm just repeating content because it serves me. But actually, that's all great. But to me, that's just gravy. The big reason you repeat your content is because it serves your audience.

Um, because they need to hear it multiple times for it to land. They probably didn't hear it the first time in the third, second time, another hearing it the third time. They like when you play all the hits all the time, you know, they trust you more. And yeah, it's great that it also saves you time. Because you don't have to create things that are new all the time.

And now you can actually delegate as well. That's the other great thing about having content to dip into all the time is you can finally delegate if you want to. So, you know, it does save us time, but it's, it's more about that repetition is more for our audience and it's more for helping them. Again, learn those things and have those things really land the things that they need to learn and hear and understand more deeply to be ready or more ready today than they were yesterday, right?

To work with you.

Molly: Um, 2 things. 1, I did just, I tried to look at it on my browser, but. It said the link was no longer working or whatever, but I've always kept this Forbes article on my bookmarks. Um, it talks about, you know, they used to call it the marketing rule of seven, you know, and now they're like, it's not seven anymore.

It's

Jana: 22.

Molly: I've seen it doesn't, I don't say, I mean, how would they actually know? Um, and it also depends again on the awareness stage, like a cold leads going to need to see something a million more times than a, you know, a hot lead, but Or like a solution aware lead, but I think I've read anywhere from seven to like 75 times.

that someone needs to see something to take action. Totally. And yeah, and like you said, that's even assuming that the same person is actually seeing your content.

Jana: And these days, we know that that's, that's even more challenging these days than it ever was before to really get the most of your audience seeing your stuff.

So

Molly: can you just give us like maybe one insight into when they're in high leverage content and they're working on these non pillars, like kind of what, what's like the first step to identifying what these. high leverage pieces of content are.

Jana: Yeah, so for each of the nine pillars, we go through a process where we brainstorm at least 10 ideas.

Um, and it's interesting. I have some students who it takes them a while to get to 10 and then I have some students who are like, I have 40. Is that okay? And I have more to in the program, I actually teach a couple of different ways to come up with all of those ideas. Um, one of them is leveraging, um, some chat GPT prompts because And this is a chat

Molly: GPT course.

I remember it. I loved it.

Jana: Oh, I'm so glad. Well, I incorporated some of that into high leverage content because using chat GPT as a thought partner in some of these exercises can be really, really powerful. So saying to chat GPT things like, okay, here's who I serve, you know, here's some details about them.

And here's what my thing is all about. What are some common, you know, problems that they face and what are some common things that they believe that aren't true that are keeping them from wanting to, um, do this with me or whatnot. Those are some of the best. Ways to get some of that. And one of the reasons that works so well, I'm on a little bit of a tangent here, but I think it's interesting for you and your audience is because sometimes our expert brains jump ahead of the things that are actually the more obvious because we have been doing this for so long.

And so in this, you know how we sometimes say, Oh my God, chat, GPT is so obvious. Like it's so like basic, like basic AF chat, GPT, whatever. Using that to your advantage can be really good because then you're like, Oh yeah, I totally forgot that. Like the number one thing I'm hearing from my people all the time is that they're struggling with this.

Like, how did I not have that on my list? You know what I mean? So we use like what I call, um, AI, but also your top notch brain. Cause I think, you know, we need to do that as well. And that's a Hamilton illusion, by the way. Um, to come up with to brainstorm. And then, um, in that process, we also go through each of the ideas and we write them based on, um, three characteristics.

And those three characteristics make up what I call my score and select method. This is getting kind of like pedantic, but, um, it's basically based rating them based on alignment, relevance, and ease. So AR and E and alignment is how closely is this related to your offer? Because a lot of people want to create content about things and then they realize, oh, wait, this doesn't really tie into what I offer.

Molly: Yeah, this happened with one of our Instagram management clients. She's gone viral both times. She's posted about breast thermography. She doesn't offer breast thermography, right? But she's just very passionate about talking about it. And I'm like, well, all right, well, whatever.

Jana: Yeah. And again, that's great, but we want to make sure if we're only going to create these 12 You know, amazing pieces that are like really, really spot on.

It needs to be in alignment with your paid offers. Cause otherwise, what are we even doing? Relevance is pretty clear. It's like relevance to your audience, making sure that what you're creating feels important to your people, not just to you. Because it's easy for us to sometimes again, get in our expert brains and be like, I want to, Write an article about this really cool new research that came out.

But in fact, people are like, whatever, that's not really what I want to hear about. Um, and then ease is about really making sure that you can go deep on a topic because if you're creating long form content, you have to make sure that it's something you have enough To say about, you know, to really like go deep and create like a deeper, you know, piece.

So that's kind of like the process of the first part where we're strategizing. And when you do it that way, and you pick the topics that actually rate the highest for all of those alignment, relevance, and ease, that's really the way that you end up with topics that are just like really, really on point.

And you have 12, you know, and it, by the way, it can be 13, 14, like, it's okay if you want to write more, but that's the minimum, um, that are going to be really on point. Really in line with what you need to convert your audience. Okay. Are going to be in what you need.

Molly: So when you say long form content, you already kind of alluded to this.

You said, you know, health coaches who have a blog, not bloggers. That's right. Different, different thing altogether. It can be in podcast form. It can be in YouTube video form. And then where does, does like SEO come in to play with this or?

Jana: That's such a good question. And it's like a whole episode.

Molly: Okay.

Well, I just had an SEO. Um, specialist on the show, actually. So,

Jana: okay. Yeah. Well, I have some pretty controversial, um, ideas about SEO. Um, so I'll touch on them. And if you ever want to talk about them more, I'm here. Um, or people can come on over to my email list where I talk about these spicy opinions I have about things like SEO.

Cause it's a safer space. I mean, this is a safe space. like, I don't do a lot of this on Instagram. I'm like, I have

Molly: a safe space. I don't know enough to agree or disagree.

Jana: No, my social media audience sometimes comes at me when I say this stuff, which is fine. I don't mind that. But, um, I think if you're just starting a blog and you're a health or wellness or self improvement coach that you shouldn't even worry about SEO until you have 10 pieces of content on your website.

On your website, and if you create the pieces of content based on my system and my pillars and that A. R. E. that I just talked about, you're gonna end up ranking well on on on Google anyway, if your topic is something that can rank well on Google. So the problem, in my opinion, with SEO is that people get in their head about it.

And I don't want people focusing on writing for keywords. I want them focusing on writing the pieces of content that their audience needs to hear and learn and understand to be ready to hire them. And sometimes those things are at odds, um, not always, but sometimes so trying to do SEO when you are just getting started doesn't make sense.

And it's also not how I started and it's not how anyone I know actually got started. We think it is, but it's not really what happens is we wrote what we think our audience needed. And then we realized, Oh, this is getting picked up by Google. And so that's really the process we follow as we write what people need.

Um, and then once you have 10 pieces on your site, if you want to lean more into SEO, once you see what's ranking and you want to, you know, intentionally target keywords, I'm all for it. But I think If you're trying to do it all in the beginning, you're not going to do anything. So I don't teach SEO. No, no,

Molly: that makes sense.

I mean, to me, it was all too much at first. Yeah. Like I said, I, I kind of waited to see organically, like here's what's resonating. Here's what my people want to hear. And then. Now I've employed SEO someone and I'm just going to start running ads, which I've never done. Um, I mean, I've done like, like, like Google ads, no Instagram and Facebook ads.

I've done some like willy nilly stuff before, but never actually had an ads strategy. But because I finally have gotten my organic conversion where I want it, I'm like, okay, now I'm ready to put some money

Jana: in it. That's the time for

Molly: ads.

Jana: Yeah.

Molly: So, yeah. Cause I think a lot of people think, Oh, if I just throw this, you know, 4, 000 SEO specialist or this add money at it.

Like it's not going to work. And it's like, well, if you haven't gone through Janice process or anyone's process of like the, your core, you know, using your core content, core, whatever you want to call it, just throwing some money behind. It's not really gonna.

Jana: Yeah, no, totally. I mean, you have to dial in those messages and make sure in your case, for example, like you have gotten to the point where.

You're converting organically and now you're just going to use ads to like fuel that fire as opposed to using ads to try to start a fire that isn't started yet, right? That's the,

Molly: yes, exactly. So last question I would say, and this might be a little longer question, which is okay. Cause we have time. Why, like, what has, why are people doing this kind of like, what's the barrier to entry that you normally have people.

Yeah, Jen, I would love to do

Jana: this, but yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. I mean, we've, we've already naturally talked about some of them already, which is really, which is really cool. Um, but I think people worry generally, I think that there's three things that keep people from creating A library of long form content the way I like to teach it and then leveraging that and repeating their messages more by leveraging it and making more sales right number one we talked about is the fear of repeating themselves some people just it's really hard for them to understand the idea that they can create 12 pieces of content or 14 or whatever you want to do and then stop and reuse and repurpose.

And so we really already covered that, but it's just really important to remember that the number one reason people don't make as many sales as they want is because they're not repeating their messages enough. So this, like you actually want to be repeating yourself. So this is a good thing. Um, whatever you need to do to get behind it, we can talk about, you know, all these other reasons why people love repetition, but get behind it and do more of it, regardless of whether it's my way where you leverage your long form content or repurposing what you already put on Instagram.

Again on Instagram, like however you need to repeat, you need to repeat, right? Um, so that's the first thing I think people are like, I don't know. Um, number two is I think a lot of people think that long form content is actually more work than short form content. Um, and I do not believe it is. Um, I just actually wrote a whole series of emails to my list about, And why exactly it is not.

And if you have a system to follow, um, like my system, blah, blah, blah. Um, it's actually not, I know.

Molly: I love it.

Jana: Yeah, it's actually not as hard and it's not, it doesn't take more time. And at the, in the end, it's going to save you time. And it's not going to take a year for it to save you time. It's going to save you time as soon as you have your first four pieces of content and you start reusing it.

So that's that. Then they think, you know, long form content actually converts your audience faster because it goes deep enough to again, show them those things they need to be ready to buy. And then I think the third thing is that a lot of people, when they think of long form content, and we touched on this as already as well.

They think, well, I'm not a blogger. I don't want to have, um, you know, H ones and H twos and H threes. And what's a widget. And I don't need to want, I want to create all these graphics on my blog. Again. You know, I don't want all this fancy formatting. I don't want to have to learn SEO and be an SEO ninja because all the advice we hear about blogging is really for people who have a blog as their business.

It's for like food bloggers or travel bloggers who monetize

Molly: based on traffic.

Jana: Right. Based on traffic with ads and with affiliate links and things like that. And that's not what we are doing. You're not a blogger. You're a coach with a blog. All you need is a straightforward, simple place, um, to post, you know, the words.

And sure, they need to be readable, right? Like, that's the extent of the formatting you need is they need to be, like, readable so that people want to read them. They can't just be, like, one tiny little paragraph with, like, light pink writing on a dark pink background or something. Sure, there's some formatting best practices, but you don't need all the bells and whistles.

You just need a straightforward place where people can go and learn those things that they need to be ready. Um, so I think people, that's what gets in their way too, is they're like, Oh, I don't want a blog because I, that's like a full time job to have a blog, but it's not going to be your full time job.

So I think those are the things that really keep people from, from doing this.

Molly: Yeah. I love that. And it's, it's similar to what I even teach on Instagram. It's like, you're not an influencer. Like I don't teach. If you want to be an influencer, that's fine. I just, I'm not the right. Like there are different courses for you.

It's not mine because we, we, we teach people how to have a conversion model. Not I'm making 50 cents on this Amazon spring top I've linked and I need a thousand people to buy it for me too. You know,

Jana: make, make a decent commission. Exactly, exactly. It's the same concept. It's people. Yeah. You're not an influencer.

You're not a blogger. Um, same thing happens on YouTube, right? Like you're not there to make, you know, 13 cents every time somebody views it for, you know, more than a minute and a half, you're there to attract and convert. clients for your coaching practice or your, your, your practice, right?

Molly: I guess I said last question, but now this is the one that comes to my mind.

When I do think, when I think of blogging and long form content, I think of, oh, I've got to sit down and there's going to be a blinking cursor and I've got to write however many words. So I know you've already kind of, you're probably like, but again, like this is seeing through my lens and not through yours.

Like you've been in your course, you know, it's that side inside your course. And I don't. So maybe I am going back to like the more basic duh moment, but that's great. Um, do you use chat GPT much or Claude or anything like that? Okay.

Jana: Yeah. So we talked a lot about the first half of my program, but in the second half, we actually write the pieces of content.

And so either you're writing a blog post or you're talking points or a script. for either a podcast or your YouTube channel, right? So either way, you're writing, you're writing and you're organizing your thoughts. Um, but we do use ChatGPT in one of the four steps for writing. Um, the way I like to use it as I like to use it in the second step, which is the drafting step.

There's different ways that people teach it. Um, but I, what I want you to do, I have a Uh, four step late and logical writing process that I teach that makes it really easy and fast to write and I also have outlined. So each of my nine pieces of content types have an outline that corresponds to it that shows you exactly what needs to be in the piece of content.

So it's really,

Kaitlyn Ross: yeah,

Jana: it's really pretty cool. Um, but we use chart GPT in step two, which is draft. So, um, we outlined first using our brains, not chat GPT. And that's the reason we do that is because we want to decide what we want to say. Okay. We want to decide what we want to cover and then what journey we want to bring people on.

We don't want to ask ChatGPT to tell us that because it's not going to come out the way you want it if you do it that way. But then once you know that, you can use ChatGPT effectively to draft in the step two. And then there's two more steps which are basically just flushing out and refining. So when we break it down that way, it's not staring at a blinking cursor.

You have the outlines, you have the tools. Um, not all my students use ChatGPT. Some of them are like, you know what, I'm happy to free write once I have the outline. And that's okay too. But for those blinking cursor people, the ChatGPT prompts can be really helpful.

Molly: Yeah, well, I would even say, like you said, like even having an outline.

Yeah. A step to take, um, I always laugh cause I'm always like, uh, you definitely did not make refine that. Like, I think people think that chat GPT is meant to be this thing that like writes it and does it for you. And they don't realize it's like, you need to go back and like

Jana: read it. It's going to say the same things.

Exactly. And I really believe when it comes to AI and ChatGPT, well, we're covering a lot of things, um, that basically you can use it, but you can't, it's not a, it's not an end to end thing. I think that's what you're saying. You can't just be like, I want to blog about this and it spits it out.

Kaitlyn Ross: Yeah.

Jana: If you look at my process, I have this four step light and logical writing process.

I always ChatGPT during one of the phases, one of the steps, not all four of them. Four. Right.

Molly: Right. End to end. I like how you said that too. Yeah. I, um, I can always tell when I'm like, uh, ChatGPT wrote that. So it's like, yeah, you got to go back and, like I said, nothing is bad. I do, I do think you, you know, there's a lot of like, what is the word I'm looking for?

Like traditional, like copywriters who are like, it's never going to be, and I'm like, no. And, and that's, I think maybe like you said, those are the people who are thinking about using it as like input, output, copy, paste. And it's like, no, that's not how we're talking about using it. Exactly. I loved your little chat GPT mini course I took from you.

Jana: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And you know, for you and me, again, it comes back to conversion. We want our content to convert people, whether that means get them to buy or get them to that next step that we, the micro conversion. And, um, that's not really what ChatGPT is out to do. It's just out to put out words like you need, you know, you need your brain to actually make things convert.

Molly: Well, especially too, I would say just for me specifically, like 80 percent of our Instagram management clients are chiropractors. Like it's not writing what we want it to write. It's like, you know. You get into like stress and wellness type stuff and it's like, it doesn't know what to say. Yeah,

Jana: right, right.

And you know, I taught one of the things I talk about in my marketing for my course is that this is thought leadership content.

Molly: Yeah.

Jana: And you know, if you're trying to get chat GPT to do that heavy lifting for you and actually create thought leadership, it's not thought leadership. You can use it again.

You can use it, but it's not going to do all the work for you. Yeah.

Molly: I love that clarification. How you said that. That's so great. Okay. So tell us, tell everybody how they can find you where they can learn from you. How they can join your course, all that jazz.

Jana: Yeah, so you can learn about high leverage content and my other course, Pinterest with Purpose on my website, jennaomedia.

com. Um, but if anyone's listening and they're like, you know, I really like the way you think about that. I'd like to hear more about your opinions about things like SEO and some of those spicy things that I do differently in marketing. Um, I really do reserve all of my like best content and my deepest and my most honest opinions and whatnot.

For my email list. So if you go to Janna O media. com forward slash email, you'll find a spot where you can add your name to my email list. And I send out a couple of emails a week, sometimes more like three or four usually per week. And sometimes more as well that are all about helping people to create content that converts and then leverage it to make sure that they're repeating and making more sales with it.

So that's what that's all

Molly: about. I'm like, Wow, I'm so impressed that you can get out three or four emails a week.

Jana: Well, you know, I realized a while ago that like, part of it is because I'm able to bring ideas out of my blog posts. Um, but the other piece of it is that I realized that I, like some people like to post multiple times a day, you know, on social, that's just not my thing.

I'd rather, when I think of my ideas, I want to send them to my. my most engaged people who are on my list. So,

Molly: yeah, I love that. Um,

Jana: and I know you're an email marketing lady, so you appreciate that. No, I

Molly: do. I would love to. I mean, my, I love my email lists and they're also very, like, I get really high open rates and I keep my list really clean.

But yeah, I, and I've often thought like, man, just make myself sit down on a Tuesday morning and like, be the more like off the cuff stuff. But

Jana: here we are, but you have, you have, we all have different like, um, you know, places where we love to create and where we're our most like selfie selves. Um,

Molly: well, this was really fascinating and I really hope that some people in my audience, at least at the very least start following you.

And yeah, I even, I always learn from your, even your Instagram. And thread posts and not that I'm even really on thread, but somehow threads for some reason you're they pop

Jana: up on your Instagram,

Molly: right? I don't really know why I'm like, I don't ever open threads, but like I'll see Jana's and I'm like, okay, I guess I'll read what Jana has to say.

So yeah. Thank you. Yeah. No, I would highly recommend. Um, but yeah. Thank you so much.

Jana: Thank you, Molly. I really appreciate all your amazing questions and just you as a human. Thank you for having me.

Molly: Thank you for listening to Holistic Marketing Simplified, and Hey, you know how every podcaster at the very end of their episode asks you to rate and review their podcast?

Well, that's because it's super important. These podcasts take a lot of time and heart and effort to produce, to bring you free information. So in order for me to be able to continue doing that, we need more people to find out about the show. So if you could please just take like two minutes out of your very busy day to leave me a rating and share this on your Instagram stories and tag at Molly A.

Cahill. That's C A H I L L. I would greatly, greatly appreciate your support. I know your time is valuable and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.