Episode 29: Four Types of Health/Wellness Business Models with Vicky Shilling

Molly Cahill
Today's episode is with my friend Vicki Schilling, who is a wellness business mentor. She helps health practitioners turn their expertise into income. And she has this really cool for different, like avatars, if you will, could take a quiz if you're on my email list, I sent out her quiz a couple of weeks ago, but she's got this really cool quiz. It's like, what type of entrepreneur? Are you like? What type of wellness business should you you have basically based on your personality, and it's not like trying to put you in a box. It's you know, you can obviously shift and change as your career goes like what type of entrepreneur you are, but it's so I just found it to be really permission giving and it made me think about some of the things that I've always like thought and been teaching in a different way. And I really enjoyed our conversation and learned a lot I think you will too. Welcome to holistic marketing simplified a podcast for health and wellness professionals looking to simplify their marketing. I'm your host, Molly Cahill and this podcast is brought to you by holistic marketing hub, our hybrid program that supports you with personalized coaching, captioned templates, and virtual classrooms. In this program, we teach health and wellness professionals how to fish but we also bait their hook, head to holistic marketing hub.com to learn more and use code podcast for $100 off, you can find full show notes, resources and more at Molly cahill.com/podcast. Nikki, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you and anytime we can have a lovely accent on the show, then, you know it makes her happier listening right? Oh yeah,

Vicky Shilling
thank you so much for having me. And I'm sorry if I've disappointed anyone because I am based in Ireland, but I don't have a lovely Irish accent. So you've just got the English one instead.

Molly Cahill
Well, you still has to love the English accent. Yeah. How long have you lived in Dublin?

Vicky Shilling
Six years now? Yeah, six, six and a half years? Yeah.

Molly Cahill
Is it like a major difference?

Vicky Shilling
No, not not huge. It's just the scale of everything. You know, I lived in London population there, what nine 10 million? I suppose that kind of fluctuates on people coming in. And the whole population in Ireland I think is about five or six. So yeah, it's just everything's that little bit smaller, that little bit slower paced. You go to events here and you pretty much always know someone or but that's cool. Yeah. Which actually quite like that has its pros and cons. But compared with the kind of full on hassle of feeling like you miss out on everything in London. I've enjoyed Yeah, the change of pace.

Molly Cahill
Now I've already done your intro, but tell us like, how did you get into what it is that you were doing now?

Vicky Shilling
Yeah, I'll try and do the dense the condensed version, as I'm sure

Molly Cahill
the condensed version is always hard. I'm like 10 minutes later, Molly's still talking.

Vicky Shilling
Where do I start? So I used to work when I was working in London lived in London. I used to work in the music industry. I used to work in the classical music industry. Yeah. And my parents were musicians. It's what I always thought I would do. I didn't want to play. I wanted to boss people around and organize things. So I worked in management, and my parents are orchestral musicians. And so I managed orchestras would manage tours. And my last job was kind of international touring and sounds wonderful and glamorous. And it was like Why Why would you leave doing that? But I think my body was basically saying this is not quite right for you. I was really struggling with IBS, irritable bowel syndrome. Some of your board is familiar with, you know, real terrible, crippling bouts of bloating in the afternoon and kind of doubled over in pain, tracking and needing to find where the nearest toilet was, which is absolutely not a very convenient when you're trying to organize things and be in control. Yeah, and just kind of feeling like I was, you know, working against my body a little bit. So really got to that point where I just had enough and enough was enough, something needed to change and basically tried to commit to change in my own health changing my own lifestyle, really naturally thought it would just be one food if I just finding a cut out lots of food, one food that is causing all of this, then magically, I will be fixed. And actually kind of felt like I opened a Pandora's box when I realized of all of these people kind of joining social media, Instagram in particular. And starting a blog sharing what I was learning was it was so much more than that all these amazing people that were trained as health coaches and nutritionists and things, saying, look, it's more it's more than that and going on my own health journey really with that, like I say, I started a blog, I was using Instagram, heavily to kind of connect with other people and just realize that this whole amazing world, I wanted to be part of it. But I also kind of knew I didn't I shadowed health coaches, talked a lot to nutritionists and I was like I don't really want to do the science that just isn't mad about just over four years, and actually realized what people started to ask me was, I had, you know, award winning blog. Oh, starting to earn money, you know, through collaborations with people, I started running retreats with a nutritionist and people were asking me things like, Well, how did you get your website running? And how did you so sought social media and, and actually, that's what I loved helping people with. So I trained as a coach and realized that's what I wanted to do rather than me training as a health coach or a nutritionist or a yoga teacher, whatever it was, I wanted to help those people that community bone to help them you know, find that confidence, find that courage coach them and teach them some of the digital marketing skills that I'd gained along the way running my running my blog.

Molly Cahill
Yeah, I love that we're very similar story. Mine was more like, obviously, like, conventional medicine just failed me and my family. miserably. And so I was like, I'm gonna go back to PA school, which I don't know, if you have that equivalent. It's, it's like a nurse practitioner. It's like, they're not a physician, but they can prescribe prescription like medications, they usually it depends on the state have to work underneath a supervising physician. And I'm just like, I'd already paid off all my student loans and like, I just like looked at I was like, I am gonna pass out and have to, like, draw someone's blood. And be, I was gonna have to take 27 hours of prerequisites. Before I could even apply to PA school. And it was like, What are you doing? Like your superpower is sales and marketing and like you and I get to come at it from this lens of hey, where your ideal client where your ideal patient, like, I'm not a clinician, and we have that language, to speak to your ideal person versus when you're in it all day, every day. I feel like my my clients get so frustrated with me, because like, anytime they talk about the nervous system, I'm like, what is that? What does that mean? They're like, well, you know, I'm like, no, no, let's talk.

Vicky Shilling
My my classic is I'll say to people, that's really nice. But does your ideal client wake up in the morning and say, I wish I could regulate my nervous system better? And then they laugh at me and I go, right. Should we find some other language to use?

Molly Cahill
Yes, and I know like I said, I do these two hour intensives with people and I'm like, I You're gonna kill me. But that's still not what we're we're not there yet. Let's keep going. We know, the nervous system. It regulates fight or flight. I'm like, Nope, still not there.

Vicky Shilling
All right. No, not not in my vernacular, not what I'm going to be Google searching, not what I'm going to be looking for on social media.

Molly Cahill
Sympathetic, parasympathetic, nope. Keep

Vicky Shilling
digging, keep coming back to the normal. I

Molly Cahill
know, I know. I'm like, Please don't come to this computer screen and strangle me. So there's a couple of things we want to talk about today. One, and this is interesting is you actually teach how I wouldn't say you teach a social media free per se, but you actually don't do a lot of social media. And at first, I was like, Oh, do I want to talk about that on my show when I'm the one that teaches social media? But I do because I don't only use social media and to market my business. And I don't think anyone should, I think that's definitely having all your eggs in one basket. And it is not the best route. So I want to first talk about how you other ways that holistic practitioners can market their business other than social media.

Vicky Shilling
Yeah, this for me came about the more people I was helping, and particularly because we helped with people in this holistic spaces kind of wellness space where they No, they wouldn't recommend to their clients to be glued to their phone all day for their own mental health and their physical well being. And yet what they think and what they see is the only way people are marketing themselves is via social media and being gripped to their phone for 12 hours a day, which you and I know is absolutely not the case. So I'm getting a lot of people saying to me, I and again, like you say I'm not anti social media is it's been incredible. For me, it's where like I've already talked about where I started, where I built a community where I continue to get clients today, but where you can end up having a kind of unhealthy relationship with want anyone to be reliant 100% on that, just because it can be fickle things change the algorithm, you know, can throw us a curveball, and we think we've got it one day and it's all out the window the next day. So I think I I have always been at great pains to say to people and the things that I know you you recommend as well and through the podcast episodes is a social media account is best utilized if it's backed up with a really good website where you can direct people off or that other people that are actually googling for you for people near me and the kind of subjects that you cover where you can be blogging or create creating content over there which can be repurposed and shared on social media by the way, we're not asking you to do something else completely separate but a website for me is a bit of a non negotiable actually I think a lot of people will trust you more they will make a buying decision if you have a solid website if you have something there. So that is a bit of like I say like a non negotiable for me that that is a central hub for you and your business. As you do use social media to remind people there is a website, they can browse and go and find. And combined with that a mailing list as well, because social media we know it can happen, it crashes, it goes offline, you get hacked you, you know, find suddenly, you've lost 3000 followers overnight, which some of us did wake up and find that a few years ago, you know, you just don't know what's going to happen. And actually a mailing list is your one way to communicate people where you have the data yourself, they've given you permission, they want to hear from you. And actually people make more buying decisions in their inboxes, actually, than they do on social media that backs it up and reinforces and connects with people, but actually where they make buying decisions is often in their inbox. And so that for me, those two key things, that I definitely get people to think about marketing outside of social media or alongside social media,

Molly Cahill
and it's like more bang for your buck in terms of time to because you could like I have a friend who had written a blog post about a meet a local meat delivered not local, but like a job butcher box over there. Probably not. So it's anyway. Yeah. So she'd written a post about butcher box in like 2018. And then when the pandemic happened, and everyone was like, not going to the grocery store, people were googling meat delivery. And she ranked, she made like, oh, my gosh, it was like $30,000 off one blog post of affiliate income that she'd written two years ago. And that won't happen on social media. I mean, you might have a real this, this is odd. I don't know how this happens. Or I don't know if someone picks up the audio, or I don't know how this typically happens. But have you ever had a real take off like two weeks after you've posted it?

Vicky Shilling
Sadly, not. But I think happened.

Molly Cahill
Yes, I've had that happen. And I'm like, what people have posted this reel two weeks ago. But still, you're not going to get near of the shelf life. And years like that. Yeah. And even if people open your emails, just seeing your name, it's like one more touch point.

Vicky Shilling
I think that's the point that everyone or people will say to me often, I don't want to annoy people. Don't you know what? I get really annoyed when people email me all the time? You know, I wouldn't buy from someone. But can we try and flip the script a bit, someone wants to hear from you. They actually, most statistically, and research shows most people, when they sign up to a mailing list actually want to hear more from the person not less from the person. There's a reason that they handed over their email address and said, yes, please come into my inbox. And utilizing that and like you say, re purposing, where else you've created content, and really sharing it via your website via your mailing list via social media means that you're not sharing it in one place and going, Oh, no one really saw that. And I worked really hard on it. You've got other places to share that content as well.

Molly Cahill
Yeah. And it's like, if you could start with your, you know, one weekly, like, core piece of content, or even start with once a month, you know, just to kind of get your your feet wet, then I mean, I have found I have a lovely Canva. And I love making Canva graphics. It's like, it's one of those things, it's been really hard for me to like, hire to someone else because I enjoy it. But I found shout out Mari like she's great. And she I'll say, hey, take this blog post or take this podcast episode, which we then make into a blog post. I have a copywriter who helps me with that I'm like, make that into a carousel. And then like maybe I'll film a cover. So you're not having to completely reinvent the wheel every time, which I think is what people think they're like, oh, I have to make content for this. And then I have to make sure that it's like now you really don't

Vicky Shilling
know, I agree. And that's what I think most people will start with social media because that's what they see. That's what they're using. That's what they think everybody is doing. And then when you say be great if you had a blog or a podcast or a video that you know something else a YouTube channel something and then share it on mailings. They go oh my god, but that's three things rather than one I go no start like you say start with one of those things, and then repurpose that content and keep making it work for you. I certainly when I got started with my my website, Vicki schilling.com would look up, right? What are the most frequently asked questions, there's kind of evergreen questions that people are always asking. One of those was how to name your wellness business. You with that? You know that that example of a 2018 blog I wrote back in 2019 When I started that website, how to name your wellness business. And even last week or two weeks ago now, a lady jumped on a discovery call with me. She'd Googled how to name my Wellness Business. My website had come up that blog post had come up. She then loaded a freebie she you know she I could then see she's downloaded several freebies and she's booked in for a discovery call and then she came on a free time you know, and it turned into a sale I thought that is from one blog I wrote back in 2019 and it's still working and getting found and finding ideal customers for me.

Molly Cahill
That's incredible. So let's let's stay on that train and then I want to talk about your your archetypes, but You kind of want to walk us through any, like recent case studies that might come to mind of clients you've worked with, and like maybe how they came in and like, what you helped them like main problems, and then how, you know, kind of like the outcome.

Vicky Shilling
Yeah. So I, there's kind of two different types of people, I love to help people that are right at the beginning of their journey. So quite often people will find me because I do quite a lot of teaching at some of the colleges, the kind of nutrition and health coach and, you know, the kind of colleges here CNM, i and h and a few over here in Europe. And that will be the perfect time for me to catch people where they're just finishing up their qualification their course or they're coming to the end of it. And they're thinking, right, how do I now turn that into a business? How do I start getting customers, and the really proactive people, which is obviously the people we want, are the ones that want to get themselves ahead, they don't want to have to reinvent the wheel sit there and you know, like you see, figure it out, post terrible things bland vanilla content on social media for years, and wonder why they're not getting any customers. They want someone to help them. And so I will help people like that. I've had a couple of examples in the last year of health coaches, or nutrition and lifestyle coaches who will come to me and say, right, I'm qualified, what do I do? And we go through everything we go right, from clarity on what their goals are, what they want, how they want their business to be. Who are they trying to help? Who are they trying to reach really describing that ideal customer? How do we put a package together and offer for them that's actually going to be in price it in a sustainable way? And way that's going to work for them? And then we look at website and mailing list? How do we build that and I helped quite a lot with kind of copywriting side of that as well, kind of making sure the key words and I was gonna say convincing, I don't like convincing but you know, compelling content. And then a marketing strategy of ice call it connection, because for some people, it will be heavily social media, some it will be light touch Social Media, some people are like, I don't want to do it at all. And we come up with, okay, cool, what's going to work for you? What actually can you envisage yourself doing going forward. So that is a real joy for me seeing someone qualified, come through that kind of support with me, whether they come through my self paced course just start now or whether they come work with me one to one and we do a bit more tailored. And then by the end, they're like, I've got a website, I've been running, I've got an inquiries coming in, you know, I'm starting to collaborate with people. People are reaching out to me on social media, because the content is collecting. And I'm just, that's just so that's really rewarding. And that that can happen in kind of sick three to six months from from finishing.

Molly Cahill
One thing I love about, I think this might be even how you and I found each other was, we have a really similar philosophy on like, the clear over clever. There's this preschool and summer camp, like 10 minutes away. It's right by the grocery store. And it literally has in the most giant neon letters, not neon, but you know, like lit letters. It's big preschool building, and it says preschool. But it says, summer camp, after school. And so every time we drive by my husband always goes to school. Yeah. But then like the actual name of the preschool is like creme de la creme, and it's like really small. But I'm like, if you just had creme de la creme like, huge, nobody would know what that is. So it's like, yeah, there there are brands like Spanx and apple. And you're like, yeah, they're household names. We know what that is. But so I'm not saying this is like a hard and fast rule. But it's a hell of a lot easier to sell when you don't have the same brand recognition that like, you know, Apple does, to say, to say exactly, you don't have to be cute, you don't have to have a cute marketing name, it could just be

Vicky Shilling
and also that I think what holistic practitioners will fall into is that they're selling the thing, the tool, the thing that they're doing. So I know, for example, a lot of nutritional therapists, it seems to be really drilled into them at college that they need to explain to everyone what nutritional therapy is. And I was like, like, that's vaguely interesting. But the most important thing to an ideal client is Do you understand them? Can you speak in their language and tilt and say, This is what you're experiencing and struggling with? And this is where you'd like things to be. This is how I can help this are the outcomes of working with me the kind of nitty gritty of what nutritional therapy actually is, is maybe part of the buying decision but certainly not the lead the lead part and like you I went home recently back to Ken in the UK in the southeast and walk past a little chalkboard outside a building and it said sensory experience rooms appointments available at 12 and 1pm. And I thought what the hell is a sensory experience room? And again, I was like what the short I would have really rubbed all of that off and said I get I don't know it's I'm completely like working on a whim like are you feeling tired and overwhelmed come and you know, book an appointment for 12 o'clock inside this sensory experience from or are you feeling you know, need some connected like, tell me what it is that it's going to do for me or who it's for Don't tell me what, like use a phrase or a word that means absolutely nothing to me.

Molly Cahill
Yes. Yes. And like, again, that's it's hard when you're the practitioner, right? And you've got all these shiny things, and you're like, Oh, let me use all these things. And it's exciting. And there are some people like you said, it is part of it. I had Danna patina on a couple weeks ago, did you listen to that one with a DISC assessment?

Vicky Shilling
No, but I noticed I was in a mastermind with someone who used to DISC assessment and yeah,

Molly Cahill
so it is there are there are certain personality types who need that like that? You know, but it's not the it's not the attention catcher, it might be something that helps them, you know, end up making the decision, like once they, once they get to know you a little better. But no one's like searching? How do I have a sensory experience?

Vicky Shilling
They're not searching unless they know and they've been shown it Yes, DISC assessment and this person and things like that. They're looking for the answer to a question, how do I interact better with my, you know, how do I improve my leadership team? Or that's that that's what it does. It's just that you happen to have a tool that fixes it. And you and I know that and we can see that. But like you say, when people are immersed in it, they don't see that that's not the bit to lead on. The emotional decision comes from elsewhere. Yes, logical logic dictates I need to actually know what it is I'm buying into. But that's not where you want to hook people in?

Molly Cahill
Yes, I want to transition to talking about your different archetypes that you have identified, because I think this is fascinating. And it's, it's so fits the ethos of this podcast is that it's like, yes, on one hand, it is nice to have this roadmap and be like, okay, like, this is a plan that has worked for this person. And so now you can plug it in and try to make it work for you. But when you're super rigid about that plan, you're going, like you said, you have some clients who are like, I'm not doing social media, or some that are like I'm not, you know, gonna go to an in person networking event, whatever it is, you have to find something that works for you. And, and then I'm always like the queen of and, again, sometimes you do have to do things outside of your comfort zone. But the point is, you have to find in order to be sustainable, and to continue marketing yourself, you have to find something that works for you. Right.

Vicky Shilling
Yeah, that's the absolute critical thing. For me. It's so interesting, because I worked with a coach a few years ago and said, she said, I said, I want to help people create sustainable businesses in particularly marketing, the thing that you and I help people with getting themselves out there that has to be sustainable. I remember this coach saying to me, no one wants sustainable. And I was like, I think maybe your audience doesn't want sustainable mine. But that's something they really crave. They want to find something where they can get into a groove with it feels good. It feels like something they can keep showing up for and that they're excited to do rather than, like, overwhelmed by pressure, it feels like it's not authentic. It's not them, and that they do for a short period of time. Yeah, maybe it works. But then they feel completely burned out and exhausted by it. So

Molly Cahill
yeah, I was trying to blog every week, what was it last last year, and I love to write like my backgrounds in I started off in journalism school. And for just for whatever reason, it felt so hard, like every week, and then I'd put it off and then I'd go well, maybe I'll blog every other week. Well, maybe I'll do once a month, you know. And then I was like, You know what? I like to talk I want to start a podcast and I love it. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so different.

Vicky Shilling
And that's why it's so crucial that you that you do that. And sometimes, like you said, I know people crave that, like, just give me the blueprint, just tell me what to do. And I'll just do the steps. This is the really interesting bit for me, because I can tell you till I'm blue in the face, how I did it, how x did it, how why did it? But actually the coaching part for me comes in when we're like, what are you want to do? How do you like to do things? Are you willing to experiment and like we said, be bad at something or try something out and go? No, that just doesn't fit with me to get to the place where you find something that you can stick with and that is sustainable?

Molly Cahill
Yes. So you've got four archetypes, right? Okay.

Vicky Shilling
Yeah. So that the top one that I think most people assume is the successful version is what I call and I've named them all they're all written about in my book and my quiz which we can link to is an influencer Izzy and I feel maybe in hindsight, I shouldn't have called her influence it is because I know influencer brings people out in hives and makes them go no, that's not I want maybe, maybe she's content creator, Cathy or something. But basically the model way, it works really well for some people where they are absolutely willing to create lots of content on a platform that they have chosen, whether that's Instagram or a YouTube channel, or maybe podcasting or something. And that really that business model is they love creating content. They're willing to do that. For a good long time, maybe feeling like they're not talking to anyone initially, but they keep going with that and build like a really large loyal following. And then they can sell things like this You know, courses or one of workshops, or they can collaborate with brands and things like that. And that's where their money comes from. Because they have this sphere of influence, they've got large following, and that's very much based on large amounts of content. And that works really well for some people, like, you know, there's big, often very popular accounts that I think a lot of holistic practitioners will look to and go, Well, that's how to be successful. That's the only way

Molly Cahill
Yeah, I don't want to block your flow. But I will just say, What am I like, I just took it down as a pinned post, because the audio stopped working on this real randomly, but it's like that, that is the trap I see so many of my clients fall into is, I'm like, Yeah, you could have that business model. If you're no longer seeing clients and patients all day. If you're actually in practice, you can't put out the same amount of content that these people can because most of these people aren't aren't actively seeing patients or clients anymore.

Vicky Shilling
So that as a business model, like I say, I see that as a business model that leads back to so there's a couple of examples in the UK. One I refer to in my book, there's a lady called Charlotte Sterling read, she does all about baby weaning, you know how to win your baby and, and again, like her conflict, unbelievable amount of content, answering every question under the sun that anyone has ever asked her about how to feed their baby, how to overcome nut allergies, and how to introduce vegetables and what to do about fussy cut, you know, blah, blah, blah. But she doesn't see any people one to one. She runs webinars and workshops, she works with brands, she has a book deal, you know, and that's how she makes her money. It's not like you say she's not in practice, every single day, it was a pediatrician, see seeing children or pediatric nutritionist, right? It's a different business model. So if you are, like you say, trying to build a clinic where you need, you want to see three, four or five clients each day, you can't be expecting to create the same amount of content or to come up with the same result. As someone like that.

Molly Cahill
Yes, I love that you can't do both. And like no one sleep.

Vicky Shilling
Exactly. Which which I think is where people fall into that trap. They're trying to be the influencer is a module, and then realizing that they're trying to serve their clients and look after them as best they can as well and they are exhausted, and then they're burned out. So actually, I think the kind of flip of the influencer is is what I call a bespoke Betty. So that is where it is you're you're building a clinic where most of that work might be one to one, maybe you have some kind of group thing or something in person that you do with people but largely, it's a in person clinic or didn't online clinic, you're building up a one to one client base, a lot of your stuff will then come through word of mouth referrals. Ideally, you would have a website like we've talked about and people are finding, you know, nutritionist near me health coach near me or, you know, answering those questions. Maybe you do talks in the local area, or even online with kind of like minded audiences. Absolutely. You do social media, but really light touch in comparison to some that kind of influence or is a model. And that is where I actually think most people when they take the quiz ended up in that kind of model. And I tend to find when I talk to people about these two different ways, and we'll talk about the other two as well. There's a sense of relief of like, Oh, I've been trying to do the marketing for influence that is the business model and trying to fill my bespoke bed Betty actual one to one practice. Yeah, no wonder is not working. And I feel.

Molly Cahill
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I didn't even know we had this little piece in comments. This is perfect. Okay, keep going. Okay, so the

Vicky Shilling
other the other way that other two ways then that I see people making this work is the third one is respond to Rachel I called her okay. And I think some people find this a huge relief when they see that there is a business model where what I often hear is people will say I get bought, you know, I like bespoke Betty sounds nice, but I don't just want to keep seeing, you know, people with IBS or people with fertility issue, or, you know, having a clinic with the same people, same program, like, you know, I like to chop and change, I like to do different things I, you know, I've got lots of ideas and things. So I do embrace and accept and can see examples of people who are much more responsive to what their audience wants, they will absolutely use social media. But it won't be like I have a clinic, these are right, this is my three month, my six month offer for you, it will be more like, oh, I can see people are asking me for this. So I'll go and create this. So why don't I do a workshop on this? So why don't I do a webinar on this? Or why don't I create a little digital product? Or maybe there is some kind of one to one offer that would answer that and fit that but it's much more responsive, it's much more flexible? I often find find when people are getting started that is a good way to test things out. And that what you like there's no, you know, you can set up a one to one clinic if you're sure it's what you want. But some people will be like, Oh, I thought this is what I wanted. And actually, it's a bit more boring. Not quite what I wanted. So being responsive and that for me is really key that they the marketing plays into that, that you're listening that you're asking questions that you're immersing yourself in what people are saying they are struggling with and they need and that you basically create products services that kind of answer that.

Molly Cahill
Yeah. And as you say, like if you are do you fall in that bespoke Betty category like to not be afraid to iterate and change? Because I think a lot of people spend so much time in that initial decision phase of like, what will be the thing my offer my offer? What's my offer? And I'm like, just put something out. Either you hate it, or your clients don't buy it. And then you're like, Okay, I'll just pivot. Is this information,

Vicky Shilling
isn't it? I also would say, give it a good at least 90 days of really marketing it properly, you know, following your advice, actually, promote it launches, want to use that, that kind of terminology, get it out there. So at the end of 90 days, you can genuinely say, I tried everything, and no one bought it, rather than, Oh, I mentioned it to someone at one networking thing, or put it on one Instagram post one. Disaster, you know, actually try and getting it out there. Yeah, you're right like that does. And again, with any of these anyone listening thinking it's not a case of you only fix and stay in one of these archetypes, it's knowing when you might flip and pivot and move between them, which actually then links around to the final one. The fourth one is what I call a signature Sally, which is where you might reach a point where you have nailed it, you've nailed a really good methodology for something, you've created something which actually you're like, that's what I want to do. That's how I want to help people. That's my signature offer my one true calling way of helping people that that really transforms people, and what I want to put people through, and again, that that can look different, that could be a one to one program, and maybe you only work with three people every year, or maybe it's an ongoing, I don't know, six month thing that you help people through and, and you take people through, maybe it's a membership some people will have and that's the way they support and take communities through things. Like but for me the signature Sally is then someone who's committed to that one thing maybe she's done the responder, Rachel thing, or she you know, she's tried various other models. And she's like, this is what I want to do. And for me, the marketing with that is absolutely social media, because that that will play a part in it. Typically, especially if you're bringing people in a certain time you want to draw attention to it and drive, drive people to it. But also good website positioning really good kind of maybe being seen in the press and PR that's kind of authority pieces as well. And yeah, making sure that you've got a good enough audience to kind of sustain that people through that signature offer. Yeah,

Molly Cahill
yeah. I'm kind of some people are coming to my I see that this is so brilliant. I love it. One thing I'm asking for me personally, I'm not personally selfishly, I guess you should say is, I find myself which is my personality type kind of falling in that responder, Rachel, because I'm like, Oh, you need that? Sure. I'll create that. But then I'm like, at what point does it become too much, and then your audience is confused. I'll tell you how I've kind of I've just have my my main two signature offers on my website. And then I have a few like, quote, off menu things that I might promote here or there. But for example, I had this lovely massage therapist I worked with in Pensacola when Florida when we lived there. And her menu of services was I should you not three pages long. And I'm like, Debbie, we got to like, what you need to do is you need to more like marketed as like time with you or like the result. And then like it's up to you as the practitioner to figure out which modalities and you're like which tools in your toolbox you're going to use for that specific person. So I know there wasn't like an exact question in there. But I would love to hear just because I see myself in there respond to Rachel, at what point is it too many offers and people don't know what to pick?

Vicky Shilling
Yeah. And you're right, like it goes back to our point about the sensory room and the you know, creme de la creme, you know, you're expecting the client to know what it is that they need and pick off that smorgasbord of options. And actually, they want the confidence from you to say, you want this transformation you want this change. You want to feel like this in your body and your mind and your you know, with your health or do this thing. Here are my offers. And I agree there's a sweet spot between people feeling like they have choice there's things that they can purchase and invest in from you and overwhelmed with just way too many things for them to go for. I think I would I can I don't think there's a hard and fast rule with it. I certainly say three pages worth of choices is not helpful. Too much. I like the idea of having something that is a kind of signature VIP, you know something that's like this is the real shebang. If you really want the change with me, this is how I work. I quite like also a little one off and I know you don't Do those and I do as well, you know that kind of like a little hit because people get an introduction to working with us whether that is a, you know, massage therapist or something like that a one off some kind of choice three to five things that you can choose from. But each of those, like you said, has to have a clear outcome, like, why would I choose between them? This is for you. If but this is the offer for you. And ideally, for me with a lot of people I work with, I say you need to get people on a call or contacting you. Which option is right for me, well, why don't we have a chat about it, you tell me what you need, I'll tell you which one of my three options, five options is best. Some people like to say, you have that kind of pyramid of like, you know, cheapest chips, you know, entry point, a no brainer offer a considered investment and then a VIP thing. Some people say you need to have things that are those levels. I would disagree with that. I would say you don't need things every single price point. If it doesn't, if that doesn't align,

Molly Cahill
I mean, I'm not going to buy at $27 If I saw somebody selling a course on something for $27 I'm not buying it. Yeah, yeah. But I mean $28,000. And it's somebody I trust, I'll I'll buy it in a heartbeat like I just did. I just bought a $1,400 course two days ago. Yeah, just like didn't even think twice about it.

Vicky Shilling
And again, I think we have to remember, it's interesting from like price point of what you think is a no brainer or a considered investment, it might be different for some for someone else. So it's making sure was going into pricing, you know, strategy, but making sure that you've, you don't second guess someone else's willingness to invest or how much money they've got, actually, like you say if they if you trust someone, and the outcome is what you've communicated. Clearly, this is what I can help you do this, with my help you will achieve this Or wait, you know, my goal is that we work together on this. If it's ticking all those boxes, they'll part with the money. I'm just saying like I've just I've just invested in someone similar level two and a half grand and was like, You sent one email. I was like, Yes, please. That's exactly what I need. Here is where?

Molly Cahill
Yeah, and then there are the people that like you said, going back to the disc and just different personality types who do need that little intro and that dip their toe in and like so yeah, it's that's what people often ask me, what type of content what, how long? How short how many days? I'm like, that's why I like to have this like variety, because there are so many different personality types and types of people. And yeah, that's like you said, it's a whole other conversation. But this was so awesome. How do we find you, your quiz got sent out to my email list? So if you're on my email list, you would have already gotten this quiz. But we'll send it out again when we do the podcast recap. But how do they take the quiz to see what type of archetype they fall in? And how can people work with you and find you?

Vicky Shilling
Yeah, first thing is come to my website. So that's Vicki schilling.com. You can find everything there. The quiz there, how to work with me Come inside my course and community just start now or to work with me one to one. Yeah, that's that's the best place to come and find everything that I do. And your website,

Molly Cahill
so pretty, too. I love it. I love all the colors. Thank you so much for your time, and I really appreciate having you on. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to holistic marketing simplified, brought to you by holistic marketing hub, our hybrid program that supports you with personalized coaching, captioned templates, and virtual classrooms. In this program, we teach health and wellness professionals how to fish but we also bait their hook, head to holistic marketing hub.com To learn more, and use code podcast for $100 off, and hey, you know how every podcaster at the very end of their episode asks you to rate and review their podcast. Well, that's because it's super important. These podcasts take a lot of time and heart and effort to produce to bring you free information. So in order for me to be able to continue doing that we need more people to find out about the show. So if you could please just take like two minutes out of your very busy day to leave me a rating and share this on your Instagram stories and tag at Molly a K Hill. That's c h i ll I would greatly greatly appreciate your support. I truly appreciate you so much. I know your time is valuable and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

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